WideBand Guages (discussion/comparison)

[Quick]

With the advent of a tuner for our cars there is a lot of interest in wideband A/F gauges. I haven't had much exposure to these and started looking around. Seems there are a few forerunners with different features and configurations. Lots of considerations. Thought it would be nice to have a thread dedicated to the comparison and discussion particular to our cars. Accuracy, configurations, installation considerations, flexibility, standards (like display gauge size), mounting options, features, etc.

Some things I would like to learn more about:
Some have a separate controller, others the controller is integrated. What are the pros and cons?
I assume all the controllers have an output that can feed another display?
Installation considerations. Bung with single wire into the cabin? everything else in the cabin.
Some can handle and display data from more than one sensor. What other wideband sensors might we be interested in other than A/F? That we don't already have available through the OBDII port?
Will any sensor work with any gauge? What are the best sensors? Is that the critical gauge component?
Any reason to take the "component" approach to your guage? Like picking sensor, controller, display all from different mfgs?
Is a 52mm display going to give you the most flexibility in mounting options?
What's your "ideal" gauge and why?

Please share.

Personally I keep coming back to the PLX DM-100. Seems to be the ultimate in coolness and features.

 

[Ozzie]

Excellent questions, Quick! Hopefully RobAGD will chime in here. He has researched this extensively. Would make a great topic for tech chat too! :thumb3:

 

[RobAGD]

Hey Ozzie,

That thread didnt end up like I would have hoped, but it has some good info in it.

As for wb controlers, ALL WB have to have some kind of controler and feed back system for heating and mainting the O2 sensor itself. It mat come down to packaging.

Some systems are a bit more finiky about connections ground/power and serial connections. MOST have a way to output a Narrow band sig to the ecu/pcm to allow the use of one of those bungs ( to avoid welding a new bung in ) and they can range from simple to complex in how they have to be installed.

I personally went with eye candy in the PLX DM-100 display and PLX SM-AFR down side is lack of logging with that setup as it curentoy stands.

I have heard good stuff about the DynoJet WB, the Innovate LC-1 etc they will all work, the Innovate units need to be calibarted and tend to be a bit finiky on thier connections. While a lot of the others dont require calibration, but there is some concern about maintance of the guage.

What I can suggest is down load the manuals, read them, log into various forums and looks for issues.

-Robert

 

[Ozzie]

Very cool! Thanks Rob! :thumb3:

 

[Quick]

What I can suggest is down load the manuals, read them, log into various forums and look for issues.

That's the problem... some of us wouldn't know what we're reading (but we do know what A/F is) and some of us can't read at all:dumb:. I think it was Jaaks that was saying to read the Innovate thread and if you didn't understand everything being discussed then the PLX was for you (me).

Here's what I've ideally envisioned. I'd like to screw a very fine sensor into the stock (left) O2 bung. Plug the supplied adaptor onto the sensor. The other side of the sensor would have a plug for the stock harness to plug into and a wire split out to run to the controller (inside cabin, probably under driver's side dash). From the controller to the DM-100 display gauge sitting in an A-pillar dual gauge pod just above my DashHawk in the bottom slot of the A-pillar pod. Other output from the controller to the HawkEye (any day now) for display, and most importantly, logging with the DashHawk. Naturally purchase and installation would be a snap with LegMaker's supplied part#s and how-to installation pics. :clap::thumb2:

And I guess I want a sensor that is at least as durable as the stock one -- or is this a reason to keep it completely isolated from the car systems?

 

[1bad4dr]

Since I have the Innovate LC-1 the calibration takes all of two minutes. Very simple and uses the buttons on the face of the gauge.

As for finniky connections?? I am not sure what you mean Rob. Please explain in further detail...

I have pulled my LC-1 out a few times and had to make new connections when reinstalling and have NEVER had any connection issues.

I love the gauge. It also has other gauge possibilities within it and you can change the colors of the display.

Innovate has a VERY good Customer Support line via a forum or by phone. Great people there from the CEO on down.

I would disagree on the Widebands that piggyback onto the existing Bung. Not a good idea IMO. Someone who does not know what they are doing or lacks attention to detail and discipline can cause serious issues.

It is better to add the extra bung (any muffler shop can do this for 25 30 bucks). Again, IMO...

 

[Quick]

Ok, scratch the all-in-one sensor idea. Am I right in that it seems that most of the controllers will take any standard sensor? Is there such a thing? If so, what's the very best sensor (for those of us who don't require something exotic)?

I think maybe this is getting into the "component" approach? Or is it generally just a way better idea to go with the entire setup from a single mfg?

 

[1bad4dr]

Ok, scratch the all-in-one sensor idea. Am I right in that it seems that most of the controllers will take any standard sensor? Is there such a thing? If so, what's the very best sensor (for those of us who don't require something exotic)?

I think maybe this is getting into the "component" approach? Or is it generally just a way better idea to go with the entire setup from a single mfg?

Most widebands will come with an O2 Sensor that plugs into the gauge.

Innovates does...

 

[Quick]

Most widebands will come with an O2 Sensor that plugs into the gauge.

Innovates does...

Hmmm, that skirted the question... :bang: Seems that the sensor might be the most critical part of the setup with respect to it's primary function. Some say "come with Bosch sensor" like that's an advantage to their product. Just go with good guages come with good sensors? Or do you hear things like "so-and-so is a good sensor but they burn up in about 50K or less". or is this not really an issue to consider.

[Edit]: some tidbits I've run across:

This is what they mean by "stoich". It's different for methanol and ethanol which means your A/F will be a little off for gas with those mixed in.

Different fuels have different stoichiometric values, e.g. methanol 6.4:1 and ethanol 9.0:1. Theoretically gasoline burns completely at an air to gasoline ratio of 14.7:1. This value is gasoline's "stoichiometric" value.

This is the difference between AFR and Lambda.

The AFR variance indicates the deviation of the actual AFR from the theoretically required ratio for complete combustion. The value of this variance is represented by the Greek symbol called "lambda," and is calculated by dividing actual induced air mass by the theoretical air requirement.

I guess the Bosch LSU 4.2 is a very popular, high quality wideband O2 sensor. Seems it has an expected life of about 100K miles (forgot how many hours) assuming normal, unleaded gas. Apparently Methanol, Ethanol will decrease this a bit. If you used leaded race gas it could be as short as 15 hours.

Why aren't our narrow band sensors any good for A/F tuning? Seems that narrow band sensors are specifically designed to detect above or below 14.7:1. They operate in a narrow range and it seems are very inaccurate above or below 14.7 -- basically only good for indicating lean or rich relative to 14.7.

 

[HoP Racing]

Narrow band O2 sensors only read to a 1.0 volt max. A wide band O2 sensor reads to a 5.0 volt max. The data from a 5v reference is far more superior than to a 1v.

The wide band packages that I sell to my customers have always been the Autometer wide band kit. Gauge is fast and easy to read and is accurate as like all the others. What you want in a gauge is it's ability to be accurate and most importantly is it's ability to give you information at a glance. I don' t want to spend more than a fraction of a second looking at the gauge under WOT. I want my eyes on the road. The sensor also has a data wire "blue" that can be used for data acquisition. Also go with a gauge that can also compliment your other gauges.

 

[1fastsedan]

This may sound dumb, but I'm going to ask anyway. Say I buy one of these just to confirm my tune as opposed to running it at all times. Or I have a wideband and my buddy wants me to check his tune, but he doesn't have a header or pre-cat bung. Can I run it in the tail pipe for a single run (secured of course) like they do on a dyno? And is there a correction factor for after the cat?

 

[Fast56k]

I am getting the LC-1 and hooking it up to my narrowband SRT guage. When I tune, I will use the computer. I am also working on a way to tune each cylinder. I think it is important to know if any of the injectors are out of whack or if air is starved in a particular cylinder.

C.

 

[HoP Racing]

This may sound dumb, but I'm going to ask anyway. Say I buy one of these just to confirm my tune as opposed to running it at all times. Or I have a wideband and my buddy wants me to check his tune, but he doesn't have a header or pre-cat bung. Can I run it in the tail pipe for a single run (secured of course) like they do on a dyno? And is there a correction factor for after the cat?

You could, if your going to be tuning your car via hand held or something similar I would permanently mount the wide band. I think what your looking for is some sort of tailpipe sniffer contraption. This you may have to fabricate yourself. I think it could work, typical tailpipe measurements are .10% to .15% different than taking upstream of the catalytic's.

 

[RobAGD]

Ron, what I have seenon the LC-1 is that they are eay to kill. Ask Jim about that

1fastsadan - if you hook everything up why not just keep it there all the time ? Its a handy tool for seeing what you rcar is doing.

Well part of the reason I mention reading manuals is that some are simple and some are way more indepth, you NEED to understand the feature sets of teh controler you buy.

I have not been impressed at all with the narrow band aspect of feeding the signal to the pcm.

PLX + 1 on looks and set up -1 Logging
LC-1 +1 Selection of guages -1 Easy to hurt

Outside of that, it kind of comes down to finding one that you like the looks of and then start from there.

-R

 

[Quick]

All the logging could be handled (soon) with the DashHawk right?

I have been browsing... What's the scoop on calibration? From what I've gathered so far is that each sensor is sort of unique in properties and has to be calibrated/mated to the controller. It seem that Bosch has a calibration chip that can be incorporated in controllers. It sounds like if the controller uses that then calibration is automatic? Maybe they do it each time it's powered on? For example the PLX doesn't require calibration.

Is calibration also required because the sensor properties change as it goes through it's duty cycle? Which I gather is expected to be about 100K miles or 10 years (assuming unleaded gasoline). What about altitude changes/air density with a NA engine?

 

[RedSrt007]

Innovative is the best product out when it comes to speed and accuracy, next is the AEM, but lacks features....

 

[Fast56k]

Ron, what I have seenon the LC-1 is that they are eay to kill. Ask Jim about that

1fastsadan - if you hook everything up why not just keep it there all the time ? Its a handy tool for seeing what you rcar is doing.

Well part of the reason I mention reading manuals is that some are simple and some are way more indepth, you NEED to understand the feature sets of teh controler you buy.

I have not been impressed at all with the narrow band aspect of feeding the signal to the pcm.

PLX + 1 on looks and set up -1 Logging
LC-1 +1 Selection of guages -1 Easy to hurt

Outside of that, it kind of comes down to finding one that you like the looks of and then start from there.

-R

You are right, but innovate has taken Meisters suggestions to heart (ceo contacted him) and is changing the connectors so they don't get hammered so easily. He should be getting the first one in the next few days.

C.

 

[FlyByU]

Im very happy with the Innovate LC-1, couldnt have been easier to install.

 

[BrilliantBlackHemi]

Deleted.

 

[nhdave]

Im very happy with the Innovate LC-1, couldnt have been easier to install.

Ditto.

Good yo hear as mine just came in yesterday.