Dave, what exactly are you looking for out of your tires? Max performance, mileage, low price? That might help narrow it down. I mean you're not a crazy track maniac (that I know of) so I don't see you needing all out sticky tires for the strip or the road coarse. In fact I don't ever hear you even talk about any kills nor driving up hwy 9 or anything like that either so do you need a max performance tire?? Do you drive mostly around town? Do you drive a lot? You want a better mileage tire? A smoother riding tire? A lower cost tire? What do you want out of your tires? I hate to say it but maybe the RSAs are your best choice ... seriously. They wear well, ride smooth and are cheap. And keep in mind with a stagger set up you can't rotate. Stagger is great for handling (larger rears improve rear handling and help with understeer) but not so great for tire mileage.
Thank you Scotty, yes, I am looking very closely at the Michelin Xs that are on sale at Sears for $48/tire and should last 60,000 miles... :blowup: this is from post #3 I probably won't go to the strip except maybe on a very rare occassion. I don't exactly street race except maybe for a block or so into 2nd gear every now and again but I do like to feel my man boobs compress when I floor it off the line. I do tend to drive rather aggressively and especially in the twisties. I have been up and down hwy 9 a few times. Many years ago, before you managed to reproduce somehow, I came down hwy 9 in a diesel rabbit of all things. My friend, who is not a bad driver himself, tried to follow me in his RX7 and ended up doing a full 180 into the ditch. Yes, he's good enough that he managed to keep it on the black top on hwy 9 for a 180 before slowly drifting into the ditch backwards. I once made it from the gate at pebble beach to the Lark Ave. exit in 47 minutes coming over 17. I kicked your ass in all events at the TE and I won the prize in the autocross. In the last 20 years I've had one set of tires last 22,000. Every other set went bald between 16,000 and 18,000. I want to be able to pass people on the outside without having to countersteer. does that help? (p.s. I think a stagger would help with oversteer and promote understeer no?)
Lmao, hahahaha, Dave you crack me up, you know I was just bustin your chops! You know I think the RSAs are an utter and complete waste of space, I wouldn't wish them on anyone especially not you. Anyway I'm just as curious as you bout all this, tough decision. You know what a fan I am of the F1s (I apparently am the only one), for me they stick like glue, are quite and are wearing excellent (7K so far). I know they're pricey but they do come in the right sizes. BUT, I think I'd like to go bigger so idk. Curious to see what you get and go for a ride. And for the record I've burned though a set of Yokohama A008s on my Mustang in 7000 miles without even trying, the TE was rigged in your favor, a diesel Rabbit?? Really?? (1980 called and said they want their joke back), and I enjoy my man boobs compressed too ... especially when I'm taking you off the line at Infineon YET AGAIN!!!!!! hehe:hug:
Matt Robertson just did a "road track" review of the NT-05's and thought they sucked. He thought they sucked in a couple ways I think my Invo's suck. They are too unpredictable when pushing them hard in the corners. He ran the 255/40/20's all the way around. For some reason he has always steered away from the V's. I think he's going to be pleasantly pissed when he finally does decide to try the 275's on all four corners. NOT a staggered setup! Our cars have a 50/50 weight balance. Having the same size tires on the front and rear makes sense. I found out the hard way by doing a staggered setup and tires that have too flexible sidewalls. People get all freaked out by the SUV listed on the side of the V's. They were developed for European SUV's typically weighing between 4-5K lbs. Now I know Matt has numerous hours at a road course. But, I have been through 7 professional racing schools, each one 6 days long. That's 252 hours of instruction. I understand car control, vehicle dynamics and know how to drive, and I push my car hard all the time. Sorry for those who have heard this before. This is for those might wonder, WTF does this guy know! Unless you are buying R-rated tires specific for the track (no sizes available yet) you are not going to find a better handling tire, more cost effective tire than the V's that can be used on the street and the track without looking silly. I don't buy the argument that no one has used the V's at the track so it doesn't count. I'm specifically talking about 275's on all four corners (Cam doesn't count cause he has a staggered setup and contributes to understeer in our cars, lol). I wish I could take my car to a track, but unfortunately the Navy's training and war schedule doesn't seem to be giving me much time to test them out "officially". I chuckle when I think "official". Pavement is pavement! So, I was thinking about getting the NT-05's. But, after reading Matt's review of them and thinking it sounded too much like my Invo's, I think I'll go back to the V's.
Where's the pointer to the review? My hesitation on the Vreds is replacement. Not that big if a deal for you guys since a brick&mortar carries them down there. My only option is mail order. Road hazard: I don't think I can get road hazard insurance on them through Moe's or eBay or whatever. If I hit something and bust a sidewall or something like that I'm just buying a new one ... and I have to have it mail ordered. If they happen to be out of stock at the moment I'm even more screwed. Defect: If they don't balance, or maybe tread separation or something like that where do I send them to warranty them? So that's mailing them somewhere and ... I got to wait for them to get mailed back. This is my daily driver and the only car I got so it's a pretty big deal for me. If I get Nitto's from discounttiredirect or something like that I've got an authorized Nitto dealer around the corner to handle problems. (oh yea, believe it or not the NT05s in a 255/45 are $6 cheaper than the Invos in a 255/45)
Those are great points Dave. I was strictly speaking from a performance perspective. Unless you are "really" pushing it to the point of breaking free you probably won't notice a difference. I still think 275's are the way to go. It's not that noticeable of a difference. In fact, I can't visually tell that I have a staggered setup. But, the extra bit of contact patch from each tire x all four corners equates to quite a larger contact patch.
Yea, no matter what I get it's going to be the same on all 4 corners. Where's Matt robinson's review? I've got to order something in the next couple of days... one of my RSA's has tread separation so it's smooth on the inside shoulder half way around the tire and now it's starting to leak... doh. I basically have to limp around town until I can get some new rubber.
The Vdreds look weird. Look like round track tires. They should have left and rights with the way the tread design is.
Matt does have a lot of road course time. So, if he does not like the Nt 05's, and the Invo's. I guess he does not like the Goodyear F1's, so, there is no reason to mention the RSA's (never ran them & never will). So, the V's have a better side wall or is it a better road tread. I bought the NT 05's 'cuz I could not get the Bridgestone Re 70's. i guess the question is what would Matt do for tires ?
I think it's both. From Rick's and other's reports there is no softness on turn in and the tread and compound is very well behaved -- when they just start to break away if you push them a little more they break away a little more. That's nice. I've had tires that had tremendous traction but if you went just a little ways past the traction point it was like hitting a patch of gravel == small margin past the break away point. That's fine for the professionals, they can utilize the extra traction, but I'm not that good. I need that extra margin and time so I can ease out of the situation.
Yeah, I'd steer clear of the RSA's. They're not in the same league as the F1's. The sidewall of the V's are what makes them a great handling (road course or street) tire for our heavy cars. From my experience with the Invo's, and from what Matt is saying about the NT-05's, they just don't have the stiffness in the sidewall when maintaining a stock diameter, to stand up to the weight of our cars. From what I've read of Matt's accounts, the only tires that are performing well on road courses are tires that are a lot less than the stock diameter, which doesn't equate to a good street tire, unless you don't care if it looks bad. I think it's all splitting hairs really. I'm sure the NT-05's are great tires. I'll probably give them a whirl next go around. I've done the V's and have nothing but good to say about them. There's pros and cons to both. Late entry for Dave: http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=160888
so this is all with a staggered setup... which you said yourself is just not gonna cut it I would like to see him run 275 NT05's on all 4 corners...then Verds on all 4....and see just how much of a difference there is. I am not saying one would DEF be better than the other...in fact i think they are probably fairly close.... and from what i hear...the NT05's *for us straight line people* can hook pretty damn good
Matt's totally cool, he helped me out getting me ready for my first track day at Laguna Seca last Nov. His sig says he runs F1s on the street (255 x 4), guess I'm not alone in liking these tires. There ya go Dave, even though they're expensive I'm keeping my 2 cents on the F1s.
If you look are the tire load ratings the Nitto's (1800#) have a higher load rating than the F1's by a couple hundred lbs, but, the Vred's (over 2100#)are rated a few hundred of the Nitto's. In fact I don't think I have ever seen a load rating on a tire on our cars that or even that close. And, yes I know it is a SUV tire, but, what else is out there
Matt has run Bridgestones RE50's in a lower profile aspect ration and found that the fronts did not hold up well.. in some cases, depending upon the track and types of corners.. I believe he loved the grip of the Bridgestones.. IMO tire, wheels dimensions, stagger and springs/sways and setup become factors in a 4K lb car along with types of track conditions and related conrers (high, low speed, sweepers vs, esses, decreasing radius, off camber, track temps etc).. along with driving style (road courses) will make if very hard to say which tire comes out on top a majority of the time...
I'm actually probably going to order the Nitto NT05s in 255/45/20 tomorrow. Here's why. The 255's are 10.04". 275's are 10.83" so we're talking close to an inch. No problem fitting them on the rim but I'm not entirely convinced they're going to give you more traction in the corners. I'm guessing that's right on the edge of where the tread's going to start rolling up/lifting. I'm also not sure there couldn't be a clearance issue in the front? I know that no one has had any problems with 275's up front (I think) but I also can't remember anyone saying they've tracked 275's up front. I think the NT05's will do fine on the street and off track twisties (hell, they even come pre-shaved at 7/32s instead of 10. lol). I think the Invos would be a little soft and I prefer a pretty hard ride (it's my exercise program). I would have tried the Vreds but I just can't risk a possible replacement disaster.
Sounds like a well educated plan Dave. And, a classic response associated with cognitive dissonance. :help: Oh, I also should mention that you used not but one...but two "qualifiers" when justifying your decision. "actually" and "probably". If you were confident in your decision you would not have had to use the qualifiers. Just an observation though! LOL
hahaha, what's the classic response part? I weighed all the pros and cons and it seemed like a clear cut decision at the end here. Cognitive dissonance is not cheap though. The damned things went up $7 in the last 2 days.
