Running rich & E85 discussion

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by StillANeon, Jul 19, 2009.

  1. StillANeon

    StillANeon Full Access Member

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    Well after the fuel pump rewire my car is running rich and feels slow as hell. As some of you know I am running the Mopar Stage 3 setup and on PCM controlled boost. I have the Walbro 255 in there too. AFR's are in the low to mid 10's through the entire powerband. Spiking 20-21psi. Holds about 18-19 to redline. Boost leak tested it and its fine too.

    Would it be adviseable to get some sort of fuel controller like a AEM FIC and get it tuned?

    I had a AGP S3 WGA on there, but I boost leak tested the car and it was leaking out of the damn diaphragm. So I sent it off to AGP for them to check it out. But in the mean time car feels slooowwww. I know with the AGP I am spiking 26.5 and holding about 22 to redline... buuuuuutttt not sure if thats a good thing to do on 91 octane you see...

    I was thinking about doing a meth kit but that seems like a hassle, and I hear stories about the pumps going bad and it can really screw things up. Then you have to buy meth which is pretty expensive and blah blah blah. Instead of putting that money towards a meth kit I was thinking about switching to E85.
    The only downfall that I have been told is that finding gas stations that carry E85. Well it just happens I drive by a gas station on my way to work that carries it.

    Its 105 octane and the gas is indeed cheaper. Plus it burns a ton better and cleans everything out. All I would need is 1000cc injectors, modify my Walbro 255 and get some sort of fuel controller for it. Maybe replace my fuel lines?

    Let me know what you guys think. E85 seems to be the new hotness in the tuning world. =)
     
  2. TNCHARGER

    TNCHARGER Moderator

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    I talked to my tuner about E85 and he said it would require a major data logging and tuning job.........remember that while E85 is high octane it does not produce as much energy per unit as straight gasoline......I rather stick with pure gasoline...
     
  3. StillANeon

    StillANeon Full Access Member

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    It sucks though because in Kansas the highest you can get from the pump is 91. BP stations have 92 but we all know BP gas sucks.
     
  4. kingnate

    kingnate Full Access Member

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    You think E85 would be less of a hassle than a meth kit? You would have to start by changing out your entire fuel system so the ethanol doesn't dissolve it. A meth kit would take alot less and give you the same if not better results.

    Also 91 octane at elevation is equivalent to 93 octane at lower elevation/ sea level.

    Your car feels slow because when you are that rich you aren't going to be making much torque. Lean it up to about 11.5 ish on the spike (look at your kr's for a better idea these are just ball park numbers) and then fade down to the 10's right before redline to keep the EGT's down.
     
  5. StillANeon

    StillANeon Full Access Member

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    Very well said, great info man.

    As for the bold I cna't do that. Stage 3 PCM no tuning device. :crying: I guess thats what I get when I do the fuel pump rewire.

    Quote I found on another Neon forum:
    Yeah It hink I will stay away from doing E85 for a daily driver. I think a meth kit will be a great choice and help me out, but that will make me run rich even more I believe.
     
  6. srt4evah

    srt4evah Raw Meat

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    I know plenty of Evo and STI guys that I am friends with that run E85 all day long, it's no hassle but you do need to tune for it. You need to run approx 30% larger injectors, and find someone to tune it, probably with a DSP or SCT, or AEM if you got the $$$.

    I don't know that you have to replace anything in your fuel system, people used to think that you had to replace all the rubber lines but I'm not so sure about that, I do know that you don't have to replace anything on an Evo or STI to run it, just tune for it...
     
  7. Goats

    Goats God of skittles

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    as for tuning get a diablosport(no wires to cut or solder and can hold 5 custom tunes) and if u want to run E85 your going to need much bigger injectors
     
  8. StillANeon

    StillANeon Full Access Member

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    No one out here has the CMR program for Diablosport... There is a local who has it for his 50 trim and nothing but bad luck can't get a damn tune from anybody. Tried PTP and they just outright sucked and never sent him his canned tune.
    But yeah I am not sure if I want to go E85 anymore knowing that it wears out the engine quickly. Just need to get my car to not run so rich during WOT.
     
  9. Mains

    Mains Pobody's Nerfect

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    e85 isn't as easy as just throwing in bigger injectors and weeeeee. You have to have a chiller for the summer months to keep that shit in a liquid form. Tune is very important as you need to make sure that the injectors are throwing the right amount of fuel. 1000cc injectors may be a lil overkill. If you do go with 1000cc, I suggest new lines at least 2 pumps to feed them. enough fuel. Keep in mind this is NOT goin to be an easy task on the SRT especially with 1000cc or 100# injectors.
     
  10. TNCHARGER

    TNCHARGER Moderator

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    Very true...Tuning for E85 is nothing like tuning for WOT which is what most of the tuning around here is.....The whole program is affected from idle to driving under loads.....would require a lot of data logging and $$..
     
  11. StillANeon

    StillANeon Full Access Member

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    Blah I am still running rich and the car feels slow as fook. 1st and 2nd gear seem fine in the mid 11's but once I hit 3rd.. low 10's and then it slowly rises to 10.9 right before redline. Shift to 4th, low low 10's like 10.0 10.1. =(

    Would swapping over to a return style fuel system solve this problem since I could adjust the fuel pressure at the rail?

    Let me know your thoughts. I blame it on the fuel pump rewire... I read multiple threads on it and I only heard benefits from it, but man running rich during WOT sucks. Maybe the fuel pump rewire messes with the PCM or something.

    Well I got my NGK Iridium 1 step colder in the mail today. So I decided to put them in along with the rebuilt AGP S3 WGA. Install went smoothly. Plugs are gapped at .034 precisely. Took my time. - terminal is unhooked to reset the computer for the new WGA. So before I leave to work I will plug terminal back on and see how the car runs and do some WOT pulls on my way home to see if more boost will help me out. =)
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2009
  12. StillANeon

    StillANeon Full Access Member

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    New NGK step 1 colder plugs are in along with the rebuilt AGP S3 WGA as of 4 days ago. Did a WOT pull last night after work:
    [​IMG]
    Boost and Ignition advance
    2nd gear 3k RPMS WOT, slow shift to 3rd and went to 6k in third.
    Went to 12.0-12.1 AFR's by redline. Little lean? Hurt anything? 93 octane, 4 gallons left Temp was around 78 or so that night.
    AFR's were in the 11's most of the pwoerband. =) Car felt sooooo much better.
    1.5kr max at one point. Fuelinjector pulse width got up to 110....
    thinking a meth kit might be in play
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2009
  13. StillANeon

    StillANeon Full Access Member

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    Update:
    I got the SRTC newsletter and it said that I am tuning for E85. This is not true.
    I went with a meth/h20 setup. Coolingmist Stage 2 kit with CMGS controller to be exact. Going to start installing it this thursday. I probably will eventually have to get a DiabloSport to get the full potential out of my meth kit.

    I found out there is a place local that has the CMR software for the DiabloSport.
     
  14. srt4evah

    srt4evah Raw Meat

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    Dunno why you guys think tuning for e85 is so challenging. It's hard, but not any harder than tuning for meth, if your tuner has any e85 experience.

    I'm converting my Evo to e85 in a month or so, all I have to get is a walbro and 1000cc injectors. Not guessing here, just following what's been done dozens of times already, with excellent results.

    The Stage 3 turbo is roughly the same size as the stock Evo IX turbo, so 1000cc is fine. Your engine will not wear out any faster, nor will you need to change your fuel lines by default.

    MA Performance even sells an e85 conversion kit for SRT-4's, you just need fuel control and the ability to deliver more fuel. http://www.maperformance.com/ethanol-e85-fuel-conversion-srt-4.html
     
  15. StillANeon

    StillANeon Full Access Member

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    How many miles do they have on their car? It washes down cylinder walls which is a fact... Engine won't last in the long run. I will do more research.

    As for the link, thanks. I might eventually switch over when I go to a return style setup.

    My meth kit is all installed. I don;t have it tuned. Just have it their so I can run high boost without any knock and the water cleans up the combustion chamber a ton.
     
  16. srt4evah

    srt4evah Raw Meat

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    It washes down cylinder walls, which is a GOOD thing right? Do you think the Chrysler Sebrings and other e85 capable vehicles on the market today have some special cylinder material to make them last longer? Of course not, it's the same engine, the difference in the "flexfuel" capable cars that can run gasoline or e85 is just that they have an ethanol sensor in the fuel line that can switch fuel maps on the fly. The GM ethanol sensor can even be installed on other vehicles, someone with an Evo did this and hooked it up to small LCD display that displayed the ethanol content live, so they could see the winter mix/summer mix characteristics and tune accordingly.

    Ethanol will not eat through an iron cylinder wall...

    Here, just read this: http://www.1888pressrelease.com/e85...ill-eat-your-gas-tank-and-y-pr-i2c00y01y.html

    "FACT: Yes ethanol is corrosive, but not very much. Gasoline is corrosive too. Ethanol is biodegradable in water. So it has a tendency to contain and attract water. It is not the corrosive properties of ethanol that can cause damage to your vehicle; it is the water which can rust a vehicle’s fuel system from the inside out. Today’s vehicles (since mid 1980s) have fuel systems which are made to withstand corrosive motor fuels and rust from water."