They had to drive it (with the busted fascia) from the drive/lot to the bay. Any gear head tech or lot porter could have esily ensured that there was a detour between the 2...
So when you guys signed for the paperwork when paying, you didn't get the 3 yr/36,000 mile warranty? I know I read it on my paperwork and the only thing I asked about was the coverage on the drive train. I need to dig out my paperwork and see exactly what it says for you. I had to ask for the paperwork on the warranty.
I am not on here to say who is right or who is wrong or to even guess at what took place. I can't tell if they tore the motor down or ran a boroscope down the cylinder in question to see what the damage was. Having worked on the Hemi's for over three years developing FI, his vehicle shows the classic symptoms of a popped ring land. Generally a piece about an inch to an inch and a half will pop off, it will hit one or both plugs closing the gap before being broken up and spit out the exhaust. There may be some marks on the cylinder head, but generally of no consequence because of the softness of the aluminum. Area to check is the valve seats for nicks. There could be a myriad of reasons why this happened, and the exact cause may never be known. Yes it is true the ring gaps are close. It has also been found that some are closer than others even being out of production tolerance. There have been a few N/A cars that have popped ring lands. Heat is a big issue in the Hemi. They run hot to begin with. Both my 5.7's in the 300C and the current Cherokee will see 1150 to 1200 degrees on an EGT gauge in cruise on a stock engine. Add in FI, even with adequate fuel and timing retard, and EGT's can quickly approach 1500+ degrees. Run part throttle boost with a 14.7 AFR and minimal timing retard..... That is summed up in the quote above. This is far too hot for stock internals. Intercooling will help lower the intake tract temp, but it can not remove the amount of heat needed to be removed from these engines. I know many view water/meth injection as a pain, having to fill the reservoir, an additional expense, etc. But from my experience, even a forged modern Hemi should be running water/meth with FI, and no question it is a must on a stock engine. Running 7 psi on a stock 5.7 with water/meth, I generally stay in the 1250 degree range. Even on a hot day. This is manageable, and I have never had any issues, even with over 32,000 hard miles on a stock 5.7 Hemi. Now you look at the 6.1 engine, higher compression, higher original power output, same ring land design. Heat becomes even more critical on the 6.1 Hemi, and a stock engine can not run as much boost as a 5.7 can. On 5.7's, no more than 7 psi, and on a 6.1, no more than 6 psi when running stock internals. Is this a little conservative? Yes, but anything more and you have no room for margin. I know for a fact, that at 9 psi on a stock 6.1 Hemi, the rod bolts will begin to stretch, the heads begin to lose their seal, combustion gasses escape to the water jacket, engine temps go up on the dash gauge, and you start puking coolant out of the overflow reservoir. This is regardless of anything else going on, and I have seen vehicles do this and not have any type of engine failure if everything else is in check. But it shows the limitations of the engine. I hear of people running FI, and maybe they have an AFR or a boost gauge, some have none. I will not do an install unless the owner is providing vac/boost, AFR, and EGT gauges. There is no way to know what is going on without them. Sure, the XXX brand system is supposed to run XXX lbs of boost, but if there is no gauge, how do you know? What if it is running 2 psi higher than it is supposed to? What happens then? Without an AFR gauge, how do you know one of those new injectors has not failed? Or something has gone wrong with the tune? What happens then? Without an EGT gauge how do you know that something has happened to the cooling or water/meth if you have it? What happens then? If you don't have a Dashhawk or predator or similar (and use it), how do you know what is going on with your IAT temps, or your fuel trims? Important clues that can divert bigger issues are missed. Running FI where you have no part throttle fuel correction or timing retard on these engines is over the edge in my opinion, and I have yet to see an ECU tune that truly can apply part throttle fuel correction based on the fact that the vehicle has gone into boost, and not simply from preset table data that can not take into account the myriad of variables that occur in daily operation. I hear a lot of people complain in the background, but rarely do I see someone actually complain about it in public. I have never understood why that is, it is not their fault, it is simply limitations of the ECU and what can be done to it. That is why I do not run an ECU tune on my vehicles, I much prefer to have fuel and timing correction anytime I drop into boost. The whole point is, FI on the Hemi has always been a challenge, and I have yet to see two vehicles behave the same and not need some type of tweaking. If you are running FI, and you do not have vac/boost, AFR, and EGT gauges, get them, and learn how your vehicle behaves in normal driving and compare to how it behaves under boost. With a good setup, you should see a correlation, and you will be able to see things out of the ordinary and get off of it before something bad happens. If you don't have water/meth, and you have never looked at EGT's, do so. Once you do, I think you will be making a call to get a water/meth injection setup in short order. 1500 degrees you are at the edge, 1600 degrees, the aluminum is losing it's metallurgical properties and ring lands have probably already closed. Let me reiterate, I am not passing judgment on anyone or any system. I am merely pointing out observations of over three years of developing and testing FI on these engines. If I have offended anyone, that is not my intent, and you have my apologies if I somehow came off that way. Those who know me, know I am a straight shooter, and I do not throw rocks.
Outstanding post! if we used those silly beans here I'd give you a wheelbarrow full. I'd sure like to see you copy your post to start a new thread on part throttle (PCM cruise mode instead of WOT mode) tuning for FI. I've wondered a bit about that and just assumed it was a matter of using CMR to make the appropriate table adjustments based on load, etc. and commanded AFR and timing.
Thanks for the comments, I will look into a separate post, I have tried that elsewhere, and never got a single response or post. I will have to think about how to go about it differently, hopefully to entice some discussion.
:stupid: I say cut and paste your original post and run with it. I bet you will have a fairly good discussion here.
How about something like this: title it "Part throttle tuning for FI". Then start out with pretty much what you posted above as a pre-amble and then your thoughts on what you think is necessary for part throttle tuning and why. Then how one might do that with CMR tuning for the PCM or why maybe it's not possible, or how close you can get or anything that would help alleviate the problem. etc. You said you don't use an ECU tune because of this. maybe some detail on the why and how of that. You may not get much of any response here either but it would sure as hell be educational and food for thought. One reason why there might be a lack of response is that you're getting deep into "advanced" tuning. Not a lot, if any, tuners care to discuss this in any detail. Understandable since it's their trade and they make their living from just that knowledge. That's not to say that they might not participate at a higher level to help people understand the basics and concepts without getting into the specifics.
Not to add confusion but the last two oil changes I had done at two different dealers, along with some petty warranty things (speaker grill vibrating, seat position switch bad, etc. ended with me picking up my car with 7 and 13 miles on the odometer respectively that I didnt put on there...... From then on, when I go in to get work done and they ask me to itnitial the work order, I initial the work order, write my mileage next to my initial and then ask them to initial it as well....After that it stopped..... Look on most dealership receipts that you get, they state the mileage on the car when they return it, not when they take posession of the car.....
jason - the post made by mr mopar is dead nut on!!! i would bet my next check your motor popped a ringland. why??? likely that intake temps got to high with the issue you were having with the air/water cooler, or maybe the tune went a bit screwy. with you not having any monitoring devices, or meth, you really have no idea at what state things were at with the set up. as for your talks with vortech, jaime is the head tech with them. i know this because he is the guy i dealt with when rebuilding my blower. i had nothing but good things to say about his manner in which he handled things for me. is his comments bs??? not necessarily. when you say "the vortech blower, or component caused failure...", that could be understood as the actual blower causing engine failure due to some failure of the blower component itself, hence the comments about peices back into the motor. his comments are not total bs, imo, just seem to be based on a different perspective. your car has suffered what many others have gone through with f/i. blower makes things hot, the heat expands ring, top of piston cracks and fails. read what mr mopar wrote...it is dead nuts on!!! mr mopar - please elaborate further on you part thottle discussions. i run meth, a/f gauge, boost gauge, monitor iat temps with my pred....... all the things you discussed. i would love to hear more! i know for certain i will be discussing part throttle adjustments more the next time i see my tuner, johan.
This is all great info guys...Mr MoPar, awesome post! What does everyone suggest for Jason to do now? Him, and the other R&D guys, including 5 other members here, apparently were told they had some sort of warranty. I recommended to Jason to have it torn apart by a "unbiased" shop and have the cause diagnosed. If the R&D guys were "told" this and took it on "good faith" they had a warranty and Vortech isn't willing to at least take care of these guys than I'll say it says a lot. Legally, they may not have a leg to stand on since no one is producing any paperwork. But, no one (including Jason...too nice) is saying "lets get to the bottom of this and do what is right"...whatever that may be. I know Jason is going to give one of the supervisors at Vortech a call (recommended by another member) and see what can be done. Jason's too good of a guy to just let this fall on deaf ears. Suggestions?
Like you said. First things first. I don't think there is any doubt that the first thing is to find out what failed and what the cause was. That's been suggested a few times already. It's kind of pointless to speculate and talk about who might have driven it or what caused what you think might have failed, That's probably going to require some tear down and analysis. And there will be some initial cash outlay. If it were me, I'd call Vortech and explain what's known so far and that I think there's a possibility that it could be related to the blower. At this point it's a negotiation right? "My car's broken. Will you pay to fix it?" probably no. "Ok, I think it could possibly be related to the blower and/or associated components I bought from you. What exactly is covered under warranty? and would you please send me that in writing." maybe yes. "My plan is to have the engine torn down and a problem and cause analysis done by a reputable, independent shop with the capabilities to do so. Would you be willing to pay for that?" probably no (or maybe a suggestion for reduced cost at their shop or an affiliated one). That might be acceptable to you but there could be some risk. Depends on how you feel about it and read the situation. It could make sense from their side since they can probably get a price break on the work. "Or split the initial cost of that with the understanding that you would reimburse my half if the problem is shown to be caused entirely by your product?" maybe yes. Then DO it. Then go from there. (You'll probably need someone capable if analysing the tune as well).
Find someone with a boroscope, run it down the number 5 spark plug hole. Look along the top of the piston in the 10 o'clock to 1 o'clock area. This is where I have seen most lands pop off. They will pop on the down stroke when the greatest pressure from drag of the ring is pressing up on the ring land. Inspect all along the piston to wall interface. 5 minutes will tell you what happened in there.
First, thanks for enlightening me and others. My issue is where to have the car towed to in San diego? Jba is 'in' with Vortech as their installer down here... And their rep, according to a few isn't great.
I don't know what to tell you regarding who to take it to, but it is your car. Using a boroscope is non intrusive, it would give you a definitive place to start discussion in whatever direction you decide to go in. If you trust the other individual helping you out, you should be able to find a boroscope to borrow or rent just to check it out. If you popped a ringland as I suspect, then for some reason, the combustion chamber overheated. Could be from a myriad of reasons, lack of fuel, damage to the intercooler system, someone beating on it at the dealer, could have occurred over repeated overheating cycles, it's hard to tell. If you do have some form of warranty, you will have to work with the warranty provider, but you can also have someone else inspect it along with them. One thing I would certainly check if it is pulled down, is to check the ring gap clearance and compare it to the manufacturers specs. There have been a few reports of gaps being out of spec tight. If that is the case, I doubt anyone will cover it, but at least you would know that was going against you from the beginning. If in spec, well, it had to be something else causing the heat buildup. As long as there is no cylinder wall damage, you could always as was suggested, pull the damaged piston out, hone it, and install a new piston. Only if there is scoring of the wall would I not consider it as an acceptable fix.
I've given up on Vortech helping me. I'll work something else out for the fix, whatever it is. Basically, I wanted to wait to disclose my feelings/facts on this whole thing. But, seeing how "Data" needs to know... I've stated Vortech's respones to me... half truths and them taking this thing as a Federal case... proof upon proof upon proof. "We" know what happened. The damn thing overheated and the blower played a roll. So, considering Vortech's approach and responses, I elected to bypass them. Instead of spending hundreds of $$$ on getting an already known problem re-diagnosed, likely only to have Vortech give me more bullshit, I'm using that money towards a fix. Its been awhile and its time to move forward. I was given contact info for a manager at Vortech, but elected to abstain from contacting that person. Reason: talking to them has been a waste of time for myself AS WELL AS other people. They specifically requested that they get the opinion of someone; that person gave them their opinion on my behalf. Vortech still wouldn't budge. So why continue to waste time, effort and money?!?! To me, its cut and dry. My car's engine would not have failed at this point and time were it not for the blower, its components and/or tune. Anyother opinions on that?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Seriously. I took the reasonable steps that Vortech requested and they couldn't be bothered. They told me the typical way a blower causes engine failure is if pieces of the blower break off and get forced into the engine itself (partial BS). I checked the "last tune loaded" per their request, and never got a response back. I had the person THEY wanted provide an explanation. No movement. So, I can either continue this ballet, or move on. So, I'm done dealing with them. I did what they requested already. You'd think that being an R&D car for them would sway them into wanting to help; to improve their product or maybe even out of the good graces of their hearts... but that's not the case. Something with their system played a key/causative factor in my engine failure, but apparently, it's not a concern of theirs. At the least, you'd think that they'd want to look at the car? Nope. Nothing mentioned... "Thanks for playing, have a good day, see ya". So, I'm moving on. Where? Don't know yet, but I will. They sold me a package that was 'complete' and per them "very safe". Well, you decide. I'm just laying out the facts as I know them.
sorry to hear this jason. i hope you are able to get things put back together in a manner that you can enjoy the car the way you did before! if there is anything you need, just give me a hollar.....
