Is there anyway we can just ship all of Berkeley to Venezuela??

pshaw!

That's the Peoples Republic of Berkeley; :cry2: :supergay: :hug: :banned:

As opposed to the rest of California; :nuke: :guns: :blowup: :rockon:

Those crazed hippies give liburalz a bad rap heh. So at the moment, the Mayor and city council has apologized officially to the Marine Corps. Code Pink still gets to protest and receives biased support from the city. Business as usual. Freaks.

 

This country was founded upon Judeo-Christian principles. Our founding fathers, the men who authored the constitution, who led this nation into being from infancy, were men of faith. We are indeed bound, not necessarily by the belief in a given religion's idols, but rather by the principles set forth in Judeo-Christian theology.

So, when ideals and actions are seen as contrary to these basic, constructive beliefs that this nation is founded upon, there is indeed a "right and wrong". Without such structure, there'd be chaos.

When the disparity becomes too great... this is true in many respects, eq: Russia and the Socialist revolution... however, there's a huge disparity in America. The difference is that here, people can succeed if they bust their asses. Here, there is opportunity.

Remember: the pursuit of happiness is just that. For most of us, its a never ending pursuit that forces us to better ourselves constantly. The pursuit is also not a guarantee, but a realistic concept. If it was a guarantee, it'd be called the "realization of happiness".

 

well allow me to retort!

Sorry. Shameless pulp fiction title. elvicsmilieys:

You just skipped from French muslims rioting (because they're poor and discriminated against) to most muslims are terrorists. Nice. oop:

Except for the Catholic South Americans (FARC anyone?), the Christian Americans (bombing abortion clinics and murdering doctors in political coercion ftw?), the Catholic Irish (IRA), the Zionist Isreali's (settlers terrorizing Palestinians, I don't mean the IDF), the Catholic Serbians genocide against the Albanian muslims, oops. It's only terrorism if you're the 'other side' and brown. That's a terribly biased statement that lacks the simple truth.

Leaving the context of the situation doesn't support the argument against it. The simple fact is the reason the French poor riot, is because of racial, religious, and economic discrimination. Sure that doesn't apply to every situation, but we were talking about France, specifically. The social woes are well established facts as far as cause and correlation.

Rubber, glue, etc. The more fortunate often build their fortunes on the backs of the less fortunate. That said, there ISN'T an incentive to building wealth if some Mob is going to burn it down. THAT'S THE POINT. You have to ensure that the socio-economic basis of community is meeting the basic needs of all people, or they're going to kill you for it. That's their right as people. As far as criminal, that's only if you think the rule of law is a legitimate means to oppress people and establish a pseudo-legitimate tyranny over the public masses. If I'm hungry, and you done gots a steer, and you would let me die of hunger, I'ma shoot you in the face, take yer steer, take yer cheesecake, and relax in your recliner. Such is the natural law. The right of survival is greater than the social contract of society. That's why murder in self defense is perfectly ok and always has been perfectly ok.

First of all, hyperbole isn't a reasoned argument. Straw man argument that anyone claimed it was utopian. Double whammy. False logic and unreasoned. :busted:

It's easy. As I said in my last post as well. Canadians and other socialized health care have longer waits. The Canadians with the cash jump the border for more immediate needs. So I retort, why do we see so many Americans jumping the Canadian border to buy prescriptions and manager other medical needs? The wealthy Canadians get faster care by coming here where our health care favors the wealthy and advantaged and disfavors the poor. Our elderly and disadvantaged go to Canada because our system craps on them. Some strong national family values that forces our elderly to seek another nation to care for them, eh? We pay double what the socialized health care systems do, and they're socialized! The spiraling health care costs in the US are only getting worse and as they do, continue to discriminate against the poor in the class war.

Welcome to America. Unless you're from the other side of that line. If so, NO SOUP FOR YOU! ONE YEAR! NEXT! Welcome to the whole point if illegal immigration. Because these people need to find prosperity and cannot achieve it at home. This is why people flock to America. It's the basis of our social values. I personally welcome them, they're categorically hard working mofos. I hire Home Depot illegals all the time to help with my real estate needs. I've never seen 2 white guys weed a hill in 45 minutes like my Mexicans do Quatro! Quatro! Ocho dinero! Uno habla engles! Ocho dinero! I'm the guy! (Because apparently every mexican knows what 'I'm the guy' means)

You ever cross a desert for a job? Swim the Rio Grande (literally sink or swim)? Get crammed into a van with 15 other dudes and driven through the heat with little food or water? Seems like you haven't really even seen what hard work is. The irony is, these people are working harder than you, longer than you, for less than you make. They're going through life threatening travels to come to work their asses off for either less than minimum wage, or for less than living wage. They come to America to go to school, to find better jobs, to get health care, and to work hard to raise their families. Indeed, if you say America is about personality responsibility, these illegals are more American than you or I. This is where the disconnect seems to occur. We Americans tend to believe that because we have a prosperous nation, that others aren't trying hard enough. HELLO! BEAVIS! You're in an advantaged position and you have the gall to call these guys who move tons of rocks for my moss-rock retaining wall, for $8 bucks an hour, unAmerican?! They're sending the money back to pay for their kids to eat, have shelter, and go to schools? And they're unAmerican? This is what we're ALL about! :hypno:

Without such structure, there'd be equality, you mean. And last I recall, our nation was founded on religious freedoms, and the legal framework for the nation instilled with the separation of Church and State powers so that there is not a legal dominant religion. The values you so claim as merely judeo-Christian are also the basis of civilized society. Those godless Communists also have the same basic values. Don't kill each other (thou shalt not kill). Don't participate in corruption (thou shalt keep thy hand from a false matter, for I shall not justify the wicked). Don't steal (thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife nor his oxen). ... don't think that because there is some ancient agreement that a hundred thousand years of human social evolution has come to find works well, that yer little bible was the first to think of it and holds it as intellectual property.

As a side note; Did you really just suggest that if we act in contrary to judeo-christian theology that there will only be chaos? Or is it that if we act contrary to law, there shall be chaos? Do you remember that civil disobedience is the most legitimate form of protest? That laws have created some of the modern world, and historical injustices ever seen by human kind? We used to keep slaves. We imprisoned American citizens in concentration camps. We've tortured innocent people (screw the guilty ones they deserve it). All under the illusion that 'law' makes it ok. Sorry, I dissent. I say that People > Law. That law is a mechanism for the social contract and not greater than the sum of The People. But that's just imho. I might just be a loon, eh? :bang:

As far as having the 'pay the way for others' ... well, get over it. You do pay for them. You have to. You will only have to pay more as time goes on. You're paying for people who are more American, by your definition, than you or I. I'm proud to be giving others that opportunity. We can extend our hands in friendship and love to strangers to give them what we believe in, or we can sit on our thrones and cast our misguided and ignorant judgment on less fortunate people. Helping them makes us better people. Denying them our basic principles makes us lesser. None of the sound bytes, spin, deflection, or hyperbole will ever change that.


:usflag::usflag::usflag::usflag::usflag:

 

oh yeah!

And hippies suck.

 

This is absolutely marvelous! A wonderful exchange of ideas, this is true self actualization on the internet...in my opinion, one of the incredible capabilities offered by this tiny bit of binary technology.

Getting on a Jet in a few minutes...but will try to follow this on my phone as I airport hop!

More, more, more....who else has opinion for us to ponder????

 

reacher, i wont try and take on each one of your points because i just dont have the time nor the patience to type everything out and look do my daily job at the same time.

i will tell you two thing however from your post that pop out to me.

1) your idea of what healthcare is in Canada is very misguided. not only is it not free (huge taxes) but it is also not any good as well. my uncle works for the fbi in Sacramento in the healthcare fraud dept. he tracks what goes in and out of California as far as illegal prescription drugs from Canada, equipment from Canada, etc.

the biggest illegal export in health care from the state of California is indeed medical equipment. from radiology machines to full blown cat scanners, this stuff is making its way to Canada. why do you think that is? its because these so called free clinics dont have nearly the amount of equipment they need to give a patient a fully accurate report on his or her state of health. on top of that, there is no major testing that these "cheap" prescription drugs get held to. the fbi is extremely worried that al qaeda or another extremist group will get a hold of one of these factories and start popping out poison in the shape of regular everyday pills like heart medicine, cold and flu, etc. all would look innocent, but be anything but.

2) illegal aliens aka undocumented workers

this in itself is a delicate subject. i happen to work in the healthcare field for the largest non profit healthcare provider in california. i have met the governator, barbara boxer (cunt) and diane feinstein. its nice to think about all the good that these undocumented workers do. they help the economy along in california, work hard, etc.

what you dont seem to understand is the news fails to report or even mention. with undocumented workers, we allow our country to be overrun by people that really have no past. people that are a lot of the time criminals on the run from mexican authorities. criminals who come to the US, because the worst thing that can happen to them here is they get thrown in jail for life and get fed 3 meals a day that are on par with a restaurant down in mexico where they are from. or they get shipped back to mexico and start the run all over again.

i dont know what your ethniticity is or what your experience is with undocumented workers, but it basically comes down to two types. you have the well spoken, polite, intelligent folk from mexico city and the surrounding areas....then you have the ranch folk. both are usually hard working people that would gladly pay their taxes. the problem is a lot would rather not. especially when it means that they have to move back to mexico and start filing their papers to get into the US in 5 years. many would just rather stay undocumented and live at home with their families.

my father came here after ww2 from the Philippines, he had to go through all the leaps and mountains to become an American citizen. why cant these people? what makes them more special than my grandfather, grandmother and father?

 

heh

No one ever said Canadian health care was free. I also get my information about Canadian health care from Canadians so it's not really misguided. The reason we sell black market equipment up there is because of the wait times. People with money can pay for under the table care, sure. Doesn't help the average Joe any. The reason they come here IF they have the cash to do so, is because of the wait times. Again, this favors only the wealthy able. We already established this. On the other hand, they still have a better average care than we do, at half the cost per capita. Including the fact they're paid for with high taxes.

consider the wiki comparison of the systems;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_and_American_health_care_systems_compared

It highlights well the differences and the benefits the Canadians have over us. Also realize, 30% of Canadians health care is privatized, there is plenty of for-profit immediate care for the able-to-pay. Half of American bankruptcies involve health care costs. The US ranks 72nd in the world for overall citizen health. Canadians rank 35th. So clearly there are some staggering differences that we can learn a lot from, rooted in the socialization of the health care programs. Mind you, we also pay double what the Canadians do per capita. Yet we rank 37 lower world-wide. It's not all flowers and lollipops, no one is claiming that, but as far as claiming it's not very good ... Canadians have a lower cancer rate across the board, lower infant mortality, higher life expectancy, rate much higher than the US in the overall health analysis, and have greater reach across the population than our system does. So I'm not sure if I can agree with the assertion that it's just plainly "not good".

We allow our country to be overrun? The high number of 13 million illegals makes it roughly 4% of the population, which makes about 3 illegals per square mile. Compared to 77 Citizens per square mile. Hardly "overrun". They shouldn't have to be illegals. We're a very very wealthy nation, we can afford to scale our immigration services to the levels necessary to facilitate legal crossing for foreigner workers that border us.

Also, you're saying that there's a significant majority of the illegals who are criminals on the run? Where's the qualification of that? Or are we speculating that because every population has a statistical number of criminals, that it's any more than oh say, the American criminal population percentages?

My opinion on the illegals, really, is document them. Extradite wanted criminals, just like Mexico does for us. Which, btw, we tend to do if we can figure out who they are, heh. Open the gates and expand the immigration services so that it doesn't take you five to fifteen YEARS to come to the Promised Land. That's ridiculous. We should have a documented worker program that reduces the necessity of the illegal crossings, document the guys here, give them worker programs, and call it a wrap. Nothing that isn't in the mainstream direction of policy happening now.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not pro-status quo. I'd like to see the illegal situation worked out amicably. We don't need to go getting all medieval on most of them in order to do so, like many conservatives I talk with call for. Deporting all 13,000,000 (high number) of them and making them go through the process, which would basically infinitely destroy ANYONE being able to get through the system, as we can't even handle the load now. Let alone 13 million more requests. It's a given a statistical portion of them are gunna be crooks, murderers, drug mules, rapists, etc. No different than anywhere else in the world tho. Liberals seem to have a consistently useless opinion about it heh, they're just 'not what the conservatives want' oriented.

Why deport the Mexicans when we can deport the goddamn hippies out of berkeley

opcorn:

 

im confused, are you saying that per capita (per amount of people), canada has a better health care system then we do?

god knows we have issues with providing quality healthcare, though compared to the providers in canada and abroad, we are by far one of the most advanced. head and shoulders above the best canada has to offer.

black market equipment being transfered to canada isnt the problem, the problem is that equipment is faulty to begin with, so the opinions of the providers working off those machines will be totally diff if they were being serviced by the company who built them to begin with.

your argument about 3 illegals per sq mile is extremely flawed honestly. there are 12 on the corner right now and its almost 5 at night. that is on one block here in oakland. i can get some pics of it in the morning if youre interested.

i for one do not think the money they make (under the table, away from taxes) should be allowed to be sent out of the country. it doesnt matter if its being used to feed starving children in africa for all i care. it is money that needs to be cycled through the system again so that our economy can remain strong. 13 million people who dont pay taxes on whatever they make (big or small of course) def adds up.

i dont care about deporting the illegals. they can stay here, i just want the ones who are streaming in to be the tired, poor, huddled masses.

 

hah

The assertion that illegals don't pay taxes is totally false. First of all, I'd like to see someone buy ANYTHING here that isn't taxed. They all pay property taxes. They all pay sales taxes. Many of them are using falsified SSN numbers, so they're ALSO paying income taxes. The suggestion that illegals somehow magically avoid all taxes is just silly hyperbole. As far as not caring if their children starve and deny them opportunity, well, that's just a reflection of you as a person, nothing to do with them. BTW, remittances are 25% of the Mexican economy. We're providing a lot of help for a lot of people that would otherwise be even more destitute, which as we've discussed above, can become a very dangerous thing. Besides, lurve thy neighbor, man! :beer:

ok, the 4 per sqm was just to say they're not overrunning us hehehe. Fair enough that it's mostly a silly point. The two of us live in the bay area, of course we're saturated with mexicans Most of California is. We DID take California away from them :guns: Go to Montana, and you're only going to get fields of white folk where we done overran the natives :secret:. Subjectively relative I guess. We see the vast majority of them all over the place here.

Regarding Canada, many portions of their health care system ARE better than ours! Many parts of ours are better than them, read the link. They have better treatment across the board for all citizens that we do. They are ranked 37 positions higher than us by the WHO for overall health for a reason. We have better health care for the wealthy, which is less than 5% of the population. So of course they have better health care per capita. When you measure cancer rates, life expectancy, infant mortality, disease rates. Ok so Bill Gates and Warren Buffet can live forever. Why does that matter to normal people?

 

it seems youre trying to make this a race thing when in reality it is anything but. illegals dont pay income taxes in most situations, the reason they cant is because the dont have the proper paper work to even begin the process. for you to state that many of them actually go out and get falsified SSN so that they can function is hilarious. not only do you seem oblivious to what is going on around you, but your taking up a position that has a zero chance of being proven.

magic has nothing to do with them not paying income taxes, it has everything to do with the jobs they can get hired for. truthfully, youre a bit naive to think otherwise. its a known fact the vast majority do not in fact pay income taxes, that is irrefutable. youre only argument against these facts should be the IRS's Individual Tax Identification Numbers (ITINs). the IRS basically allows every undocumented worker to get assigned a person number so that the individual can pay their taxes every year. whats funny is that of the known 7.4 million ITINs, only 4 million and change actually filed their taxes last year. thats 4 million of the known 16 million (there are actually quite a bit more according to the fbi) that did the right thing. its nice to see that there are honest people still out there and that they are interested in contributing to the country theyre living off of.

the fact that they have children or family living in poverty somewhere else does not concern me. it is where they were born and contrary to popular belief, there are poor countries in this world. we are lucky to have been born here, or raised here by our parents or their parents that sought out the dream that this country could provide....LEGALLY. jesus man, do you have no respect for the people that toiled before you?

we (im guessing you mean settlers) took this country from everyone. indians, french, spanish, etc. they all owned part of this new world before we (the US) took over. what does that mean? does it mean theyre indian? spain took mexico a long time before the US did.

this being california doesnt make a difference. not where the largest group of illegal immigrants are living in the chicago area and not los angeles like so many believe. we did not in fact take illinois from the mexicans.

we have about triple the unemployed here in the US as opposed to canada. you cant always get quality healthcare in many states without a job and its included health insurance. so what does that mean? it means get a goddamn job and stop living off the government....

 

whee

Hmm. You know it's time to bow out of the "discussion" when it devolves into accusations of making the debate about race, nativete, disrespecting our forefathers, and proclamations of the flying spaghetti monster. Instead of trading ideas and debating the ideology :tip:

 

i may be off in my thinking that you are involving racism into this subject. personally, that is my opinion. i would venture to guess youre either latino or have a strong latino background.

the major problem with debate is that it often gets infused with our personal backgrounds, and if my thinking is correct, your personal background is very close to this subject. again, im guessing that this is the reason for your perspective. im pretty darn disassociated with it even though i work for a company that does indeed cater to the undocumented worker. at the same time though, given my families background, i am involved.

bottom line here is that it is indeed disrespectful to our parents (if they werent born here) to allow this style of immigration to go on further. my grandfather went to war for this country in the pacific, afterwards, he and my grandmother and father immigrated to this country and settled in stockton.

 

Now that this has cooled a bit and I have been able to read all of the input...

Thanks for the views!

If we can avoid the personal assumptions about one another, and stick to facts and opinions about the issue, we will all grow. But I also understand the emotion that becomes part of the debate...we will get better and better at this process...we have to in order to achieve growth.

 

WOW, Quite a read. I would like to add my .02. This goes to Prof,Reacher,Mother Mopar and Drkne55. You guys got off track alittle bit but a lot of intellect was flying around. To imagine this is a SRT Forum and the ideology was excellent from all. This was initially started with Code Pink vs Marines.


1.) Equal Rights not Special Rights.
Would you say Code Pink was given special rights or not? I for one say they were and that is wrong.

2.)Illegal Immigrants.
What part of illegal don't you understand?
Illegals cost this great country 350 billion a year. For every 10k they contribute they cost about 30k when you consider Government welfare, schools, money they send to their countries. i could go on with real facts but you get my drift.

3.) Social Liberalism but Fiscal Conservative
- This almost sounds like an oxymoron. In your heart but not your pocket. This bothers me the most because the two ideologies are far apart and can not and should not be used in the same sentenance. They are at complete odds with each other.

4.) What ever happened to common sense law.
Our country started with a set of laws-Constitution- Somehow every year we make more laws and more laws for the liars oops I mean lawyers to interpret them. Don't we have enough laws now what about following the ones we have on the books let's just follow those for now.

5.) Taxation without Representation. Please show me what country has taxed itself to prosperity. Please! We'll I'll just stop here for now. i am just thinking outloud. To properly respond I am going to put some thoughts on paper.


Sam

 

Sam just to address your perception about "socially liberal and fiscally conservative".

I struggle with this too, and claim to be one. But in my mind it really comes down to priorities....an example:

I would love to see us make law enforcement and education top priorities...imagine what could be achieved if we decided that sworn officers and teachers (K-12) had a starting salary of $150k annually. I see lots of possible outcomes that long term change the face of our country...imagine the best and finest in our society in line to get teaching and law enforcement positions. We create high standards, demand outstanding results and get rid of the bottom 15% each year...

One of my classes tried to cost this approach as an added expense to all that is already contributed in taxes. The cost was just over $400 (additional) per tax payer per year.

You can let your imagination go wild over the impact of such a national privatization. I think of ideas such as these as socially liberal and fiscally conservative...yes it is additional taxation, but the kind of expense that I think could be sold to American tax payers.

 

Roy, I agree with your premise. But I would employ a different approach to the situation.

1.) Don't accept mediocrity. That bottom 15% should be gone today. No clockwatchers.

2.) Reduce expenses First and foremost. Example- Reduce administration. In my school region there are 650 teachers and 625 administration personel. do we see a problem or is it just me? Now I know we live in N.J. where corruption, nepitism and other problems exist and they only excerebate the problem.

3.) Raise Police and Teachers salaries by 25% but only retain the best. utilize the savings of reducing the administration and give the difference back to the people who pay the taxes.

4.) Operate these services like a business or your family finances. No more new taxes.


Sam

 

Chime in people...we may be on a roll!

All we have to do is decide to make a difference.

 

How about a balanced federal budget mandate?

If cities and states can do it so can the federal government...and a mandatory % in that budget to pay down the federal debt, re-finance MEDICARE and get Social Security on a healthy track.

Why is this so easy? I guess the devil is always in the detail.

 

im down for the teacher increase. its bad when a teacher of 20 something years makes the equivalent of a fast food manager.

police on the other hand....

im ok with how the chp and other state agencies (such as the oregon state police) go about their hiring. only the top 10 percent (like the fbi) are usually hired. local law enforcement hire anyone and everyone, some of these leos are as dumb as a stump yet hold the authority to shoot me down.

im not really ok with that aspect of our law enforcement.