I too got "SCREWED" by TECHCO, and CTP will come to the rescue...

James, your two paragraphs are contradicting.

The point is, if the system continuously levels itself off to below the full line, then that is the way it is. That is Cam's POINT of NOT adding fluid, rather just check the levels. This is what you are NOT understanding. You are chasing your own tail because 1) you aren't listening, 2) not understanding, or 3) all of the above...

I am closing this thread for the night to allow Cam a chance to come in here (in the morning) and give the full details of what he did, what he found, and what he wanted you (James) to do. Cam will reopen this thread in the morning.

 

Ya know, I can't even begin to bring myself to read the posts it's that irritating.

So let’s do a little re-cap of this entire situation shall we.

Prior to seeing the car in person, I was lead to believe there was a substantial amount of fluid lose. And like James has stated, I told him to be careful and let's get it checked out. Also, that during the tuning sessions’, he had a fair amount of part throttle knock which I attributed to (what I assumed) was the coolant entering the combustion process.

That pretty much sums it up.

Now here's the tests I performed and you guys tell me what you think.

When James arrived Sunday after his 300 mile drive. I let the car cool for 1/2hr. I then removed the reservoir cap and was very surprised to find it under pressure. I also observed the coolant level to be down maybe an inch from the top. BTW guys, this reservoir holds maybe 3oz's of fluid.

On Tuesday afternoon I decided to complete a pressurized leak down test. I found the coolant level to be almost exactly where it was on Sunday. Keep that little fact in the back of your heads guys.

Tuesday's test as I already posted:

And like I said, we'll see if the coolant level drops the following morning which it did, just about a 1/2".

So on Wednesday I decided to do this test:

I did catch something you wrote James about the tech wondering how I could have done this. Ya know, I had a feeling I'd get called out on this. So...






So at this point I'll gladly admit I'm slight baffled. And I decide the make a few calls. Lucky for me some of the best talent in the industry are friends of mine. And even they were scratching their heads. So this brings it to a point of (for lack of a better term) desperation. Let’s try some Bar's leaks and see if that solves the problem.

And this occurred on Thursday afternoon and evening and here was my post from that night:

Now comes Friday morning. On Thursday evening I filled the system while it was warm. So in the morning the reservoir was empty and it took maybe 3 oz's to fill. Now after all the flushes, this is not a surprise as this system is not easy to burp. I also decide to raised the reservoir above the top of the blower. The one down side to this system is that having the air bleed above the top of the blower is not possible on the vet which is a major problem as this will not allow the system to self purge.

It was right then that it hit me what the problem most likely is (or as you called it, what change my opinion). There is insufficient space within the system to allow for fluid expansion. And just like the ole term "life will find a way", I realized that the fluid level and required air space will find a way.

So here were my instructions to James upon picking up his car from my shop.

"DO NOT OPEN THE RESAVOIR. LEAVE IT ALONE FOR 500 MILES. DO NOT TOUCH IT, LET THE CAR HAVE A FEW HEAT AND COOL DOWN CYCLES. THEN MEASURE EXACTLY THE AMOUNT OF COOLANT IT TAKES TO FILL IT UP. THEN DO THAT AGAIN FOR ANOTHER 500 MILES". If it takes approximately the same amount of coolant, well there you go.

James, you didn't even go 80 miles and you opened it up. My gawd man, WTF.

BTW guys, I had a nice conversation with James tuner. He agreed with my assessment.

So here is where we stand James. Until you are able to leave the damn thing alone and do EXACTLY what I told you to do, we have nothing to discuss. I'm not infallible and every so often I make bad calls just like everyone else. But I think with the exception of a vacuum test, I covered my bases pretty decently. Also, you are desperate to find something wrong with your car. My suggestion for you is to pull the blower off, sell it and put your car back to stock. You're never going to be happy.

 

Cam, my tuner opened the reservour himself to check it out. As you said, the system in the Vette is hard to purge. As I previously said as well, it took around 10 ounces to bring the fluid back to level, because it had air trapped in it. We wanted to make sure, befor a rigorous tuning session that the system had the proper amount of fluid, which it did not, and I hope that we can all agree that 10 ounces short would make a difference in how the system would cool down the intake charge. Cam, when you told me about checking the fluid at 500 miles intervals, I asked you if it could be done in less miles. The reason that I asked this, is because I usually do not drive my car much, and will be going overseas for a month, in the interest of time and to get this resolved. You mentioned as long as I check it within the same interval and time period, and to monitor how much fluid I added each time, this is what was important, as you indicated above. Cam, I will work with my dealership, Whipple, and yourself to try and get this finalized.

 

Don't twist my words James. I made it perfectly clear what, how and why. Until you can complete the test exactly the way I asked you too or if someone you know has some other form of what you consider trouble shooting the system. We're done for now.

 

No twist at all Cam. I will contact you, or someone here locally, if we have any questions about the procedures that you performed. BTW: How do you go about performing a vacuum test on the system?

 

You are more then welcome to have anyone you want contact me and I will guide them through what has been completed and how they can go about vacuum testing the system.

But I put a great deal of time and effort into what I did. And as far as I'm concerned, we found a design flaw. And the only way to determine if I'm right or wrong is to do EXACTLY what I already described.


BTW, something else I found out with the help of a highly intelligent friend. For every 100 degrees of temp rise the coolant/water mix will expand 2-3 oz for every gallon of mixture. So if that is correct, then so am I.

 

Thank you. When I have the system flushed and refilled, I will have them contact you. Cam, please understand that I am not criticizing you and saying that you did not spend time doing what you did. Once the system is flushed and refilled, I will go about going with the longer interval and mileage testing. What is your solution to correct the design flaw? I believe that you mentioned increasing the size of the filler reservoir?

 

Gezzis James. There you go again. I told you in no uncertain terms. Leave what's in there untill AFTER the two 500 mile tests are completed. DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING. Only add fluid at those two intervals AND KNOW EXACTLY HOW MUCH FLUID IT TAKES TO FILL. DON'T OPEN THE SYSTEM, JUST LEAVE IT BE. LET IT HAVE SEVERAL HEAT AND COOL CYCLES FOR BOTH PERIODS. I know what's in there is not a pretty pastel color, but it'll be fine. That product is made for this application. Leave it alone.

 

We got this part. System was flushed and refilled and needed burped.

I'm having a hard time seeing how that got translated into every morning... I was thinking that you didn't understand the objective of this diagnostic but your responses seemed to indicate that you did.

The idea is that the system seeks a level. If you fill it over that level it will purge itself down to that level.
NOTE: This doesn't say anything about whether it's the right level, good level or anything other than it has a "full" level and won't maintain an over full level.

You're trying to determine if you have a LEAK right? If it's just the system maintaining it's full level then there isn't any leak.

If there is a leak then you would expect the level to get lower and lower the longer it's used.

So far you know it loses about 1 oz everytime it's driven for a day. Without any other data points to compare with that doesn't answer the question.

To get a significant data point to compare with, Cam has asked you to drive it 500 miles before checking and refilling and to measure the amount added.
THEN drive it 500 miles again before checking and refilling and measuring the amount added the second time.

So you're in a hurry, and you're anxious to get this resolved immediately, and you're leaving for a while, and... Not sure what to say about that. (please don't recount the whole epic story from the beginning again -- we all feel your disappointment and anxiety and impatience. We're all gear heads too and very many here have been through similar situations). You want to cut the period down... how much? How much before it's ineffective and you don't get substantive data? I think if you were able to make that call you wouldn't have needed Cam, your dealer, whipple, etc. right? I think if you try to second guess the experts you've sought out you may well end up screwing the pooch.

My opinion is that you've got some time and effort invested with Cam (and he certainly has as well). Tacking off on a parallel effort with your dealer, whipple, your tuner, etc is not likely to save you time or solve the problem any faster and definitely not cheaper. They're going to want to start pretty much from the beginning. Every time you check the level and add fluid every morning or before you get a 500 mile interval in you're just losing another day and that many miles you could have had on the diagnostic. I expect you're going to go to the dealer and whipple and whoever and give them Cam's contact information and tell them he has all the technical details and will work with them to resolve the problem. ... I don't expect Cam will be sitting by the phone 24x7, if they're not real familiar with the Techco I don't expect Cam is going to be willing to spend hours on the phone training them, and I don't expect them to try more than a quick ring to talk to him either.

(I used to love to drive my friend's classic big block vette. Leave it with me for a weekend and I'll put at least 800 miles on it.)

 

Thank you. Will do. Per Cam's advise, the current fluid will need to be drained, flushed, and refilled again, because he added a seleant mixture with the existing coolant. I believe that he did this in the event that there is a small leak. The fluid color looks brownish, much like Diarrhea, for a better lack of description. Cam, please let me know what exactly went into the coktail sealant mixture. The way I put miles in my car is very incosistent, regarding time. For instance, I can put 500 miles in a week, such as the trips to Cam's shop, and then it may take me a couple of months to log on another 500 miles. The test would be consistent with mileage, but not timing. This is the only reason why I was checking the level every morning, after driving the car on the previous day, as this would allow the same timing of checking. I truly was afraid to cause possible damage to the engine, if there was fluid leaking, and me running a hotter intake charge, thus creating more KR and detonation.

 

James, you ARE NOT reading or understanding Cam's instructions correctly.

James, read the quote below!

 

Ron, I read it. READ mine. I said that the system WILL NEED TO BE drained, flushed, and refilled. WILL means in the future, which is exactly what WILL need to be completed.

 

Ummm, *I* knew your driving habits from your posts before you took the car to Cam.
I believe Cam said 500 miles.
He didn't say anything about the time to put 500 miles on it.
He didn't say anything about how many drive/cool down cycles.
He didn't say anything about letting it sit for a day each 100 miles.
He didn't say anything about the outside temperature when you drove it.

I fully understand the urge to participate in the diagnosis and resolution but so far your assumptions and drawn conclusions have only delayed things. Actually it wasn't your assumptions and drawn conclusions, it was your decision to act on those assumptions and drawn conclusions. I would at least ask before deciding to modify the procedure on your own or just mention it if you feel something out of the ordinary wasn't taken into account.

 

I just want to go on record here and clarify a couple of statements that were made in regards to my inter-cooler leak. The following references were made to HEMI911

• Cam, mentioned to me that the blower was not removed from the car, nor opened up to check the washers or internals, such as the issue with Chuck’s car (HEMI911).

My blower was opened up to investigate for a leak only when it was pressurized and found not hold pressure at all. In fact you could hear it hissing under low pressure. I am at a loss why you appear to be suggesting your blower should have been disassembled to investigate for a leak like mine. In my estimation it would not made any since to disassemble your blower to look for a leak if under pressure it shows no signs of leaking.

It reminds me of running out of gas on the freeway, and instead of figuring out how to get more gas; you call for an instrument man to figure out what’s wrong with your gas gauge in lieu of the gas!

• Well, I was told if there are no leaks externally, it has to be leaking internally and the fluid burnt during the combustion process, such as was occurring with HEMI911 Car.

When my inter-cooler was leaking and migrating into the combustion process, my engine was running extremely rough, I have not heard you mention this was happening to you.

In fact I could have never driven my car from Fresno to Riverside while it was in this condition. This is indeed why I never tried to drive it back up to Northern California and sought Cams help.

Just my two cents!!!

 

You can understand Ron's misinterpretation of your statement, right?

 

haha yea, misinterpretation my ass. James clearly wrote he first had to flush the system before continuing with Cam's instructed testing intervals!

 

C'mon Ron, read your post 104 and then 107. As I pointed out, no matter what is said on this thread, your opinion will be biased (as shown on post 104, and later retracted on post 107, after Cam's subsequent post), but that is how life is. We all stick near those that scratch our backs. The bottom line is that I am picky about my car (as you all are), being that we are car enthusiasts, and suffered a big blow with Techco and them going out of business, so now I am being extra cautious. I do not have a close friend such as you do that can perform repairs at any given time at most likely greately reduced rates, due to the close friendship, such as your proximity with Cam. I am on my own, and nervous about it. I was afraid of driving my car hard, because of the loss of fluid in the system. If something happens to my car, I am now responsible for it, not Techco and not CTP. If my motor lets go, and a leak is subsequently found on the system, and the blow is due to KR or detonation (due to additional heat from low fluid in the intercooler), will CTP rebuild my motor free of charge? Who will the blame lie upon then? Of course not, even though the tune is spot on, as it have now been checked twice, and about 12 hours have been spent on the tune, after leaving Techco. These systems are extremely sensitve to heat. For this reason I had checked the level frequently to ensure a cool charge from the supercharger, and reduce the chance of KR and possible detonation, which could result in damage to the motor. For this reason, I was and am skeptical about logging 1.000 hard miles on the car (especially with that thick like colored coolant with sealant), without adding any fluid, so I am doing research and examining all my options. This is much like going to a doctor with a health issue, and get an opinon about treatment, but wanting a second or third opinion before selecting the option that you feel is best for you. As Cam stated, he is not unfalable, although he has great knowledge, but none of us know it all, that is for darn sure.

PS: Cam, when you get a chance, please let me know why you added the sealant to the system, after you concluded that in your belief there was no leak, and what exactly was added.

In closing, there is no point in us arguing back and forth, as we have already expressed our opinions, and although they differ, we have to respect one another. I will make posts to this thread with updates, as they become available. Thank you.

 

James, you are an idiot!

And by the way, I live 900 miles (one way) from Cam. Yes he helped me out while I was in town a couple weeks ago, but other than that, I work on my own car.

 

It sounds like you should just take the blower off. You're afraid of lack of support and you're afraid of blowing the engine, just take it off and you're safe(r).

I don't know how it works in the Vette world, but around here when you start modding motors and/or adding blowers there are no warranties. There are several of us on here who have blown motors due to modding, myself included. I think Ron has had more engines in his Charger over the past 4 years than I have owned my entire life. We all know that it sucks, but 90% of us end up taking care of it ourselves, meaning we paid for our parts, labor, or both. The bottom line is that if you put a blower on a motor, you should be prepared to replace that motor if you need to.

Based on your nerosis over this issue, I would suggest that you take the blower off or start learning how it works and how to turn some wrenches, fast.

 

All involved, staff or not, please kindly STFU!

Cam is a big boy he can stick up for himself.

TechcoVette, when you joined I told everyone hold back and watch what you were going to do. Do NOT make me look like an idiot. I do NOT enjoy looking like an idiot.

Watch your delivery and please take all of Cam's posts in a helpful way. He has gone FAR and BEYOND the call of duty to meet you on your theoretical side.