Cylinder Head Shootout

Straight from HoP. This thread is the preview, the trailer if you will to the big show.
So were gonna make the results thread a "sticky" thats locked. Then were gonna have the real calm discussion thread. :stars:
So there you have it. Gonna take a minute to get the spread sheets and all the data compiled into a easy to view format. Josh is working on it this weekend at night after shop work all weekend. :beer:

 

Have a bottle tonight and have a great weekend, Chris. You deserve it!

Thanks for everyone's effort.

 

Oh yes.. without Chris's great ride to bear the brunt (like any good Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep product) this whole gong show would not have us anticipating more interesting conversation, rhetoric, rhumatism, and probably some serious decision-making for those of us on the verge of ordering heads (that lean more towards smaller cross sections and therefore higher flow - I'm reading between the lines here) on our five-sevens than ever.

Thanks Chris, I hope the (current) build over the weekend meets with your approval....

 

Trojan, Thanks for all the hard work you have put forth in this area.

Can you post the link to the write up when it is complete?

 

Absolutely guys, it will be linked for all to see. Worldwide, or should I say Internet wide!

 

I would like to say our peace since it seems there is a ton of incorrect info being posted about us.

1. They did not use our original numbers for this test, they used a later dyno number once the valves were damaged and the heads had time to cover themselves in carbon. Our original dyno numbers were 20hp higher than the numbers used in this test, but the exhaust was also changed, so it isnt fair for us to use those numbers.(hardly an advantage to us)

2. Chris bought a set of heads from us 2 months before the shoot-out was decided. All other vendors knew they were sending heads to a shoot-out. (again, slight disadvantage to us)

3. We did not know any of the cam specs when we sent the heads down, others knew exactly what cam was in the car. (not necessarily a disadvantage to us, but definitely not to our advantage)

4. Yes our heads received the most tuning, but not because of a test, the tuning was conducted when the heads were first purchased.

5. All heads received tweaks on the dyno except for the PRD heads. Each head will not require differences in timing as no one touched combustion chambers.

6. The mopar heads were only milled .005 compared to the rest of us and our .020 mill. This is evident in the CC volume. I hope this ends the rumor that the Mopar heads have a smaller combustion chamber.

7. If Hemiguy is in Virginia, I know exactly who he is.

8. I am not going to be able to convince those of you that dont want to listen to reason, but those are the facts above and I dont see how we had an advantage at all, if anything, we were at a huge disadvantage by comparing our used/damaged heads to brand new sets by the other vendors.

9. The rocker/retainer might be an issue with the valve lift on the cam itself, I am curious to know what the specs on the cam are so that Ed Curtis can check that to see if the specs might be too extreme.

 

Andy speaks the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth!

Hey your new sig is pretty damn funny. I needs me one of those quotes.

 

SO you are using the dyno tune,that they spent weeks and weeks tweaking,and that we have been reading about in there previous posts.??????.
MY understanding is they put the hhp cam back in for these tests.
which was the same cam that they used to tune the car for the last few months.
How do you expect anyone who knows anything about motors,to believe you did not have a advantage with custom tuning for your heads,are all the heads built the same,i dont think so.
Best of luck to you.

 

Are you a CMR tuner? Are you a tuner of any kind? The time they spent on tuning his car was probably 90% closed loop, 10% open loop. WOT takes no time at all to tune, so the majority of that time was spent on VE tables and last I checked, the comparo was at WOT, not cruising speeds. The HHP cam was never taken out, the entire test was done with the same cam and if you knew anything about tuning, you would know that a couple of tweaks on the dyno with air/fuel is all that is needed and it was done. Are you saying they should have tuned all the heads for closed loop performance.


No one complained about this on the last comparo between FRI heads and DR heads. They used the exact same tuning, and it wasnt an issue then, why is it now? Josh already said 100 times, that the mopar/HHP heads did receive tweaks on the dyno which is all that is needed for open loop dyno pulls.

If there was a different cam going in and this was a cam shoout-out, exstensive custom tuning would be needed as the timing events would all be very different, but in this case, the only difference is air/flow and air velocity which can only be offset by adding/removing fuel during open loop.

 

Andys right on the money again Mr 392. Again I say read the entire thread before making assumptions. Closed loop isnt gonna effect this test. WOT was tweaked for all heads other then PR&D's. Sit back and relax. Lets not cluter this thread anymore then it has been. When the results are posted you'll have your chance to speak out. :beerchug:

 

I HAVE READ ALL THE PAGES.
on FEB 7 You said even with the valvetrain issue everyone will be surprised by the dyno results.
Question: are you the only vendor that has been given the dyno results,if this is an impartial test why do you already have the results.
ON nov 19: hop racing has decided to use the hhp cam instaed of the tombhawk rip.
QUESTION:Why would they use the same hhp cam that had over 60 dyno pulls done to it with your heads on it.????.
FEB1:YOU SAID A CMR TUNE WAS NOT NEEDED FOR SOMEONE ONLY INSTALLING A SET OF HEADS.
QUESTION:why not put each set of heads on the car,and only tune wot,this would be a completely fair test for each head.
QUESTION: since you supply hop with heads for all there indy strokers,dont you think you should have made sure that your heads did not receive ANY special treatment,like 60 dyno pulls worth of custom tuning.
nov 20: if i get a near perfect tune with ppp heads and a hhp camshaft,im certain other companies will not object,and that this tune is not favoring anybody.
Question; WERE ALL VENDORS TOLD UP FRONT THAT THE PPP HEADS WOULD BE THE ONLY HEADS THAT would receive a complete 60 dyno run custom cmr tune.
These are my concerns with the tests.
I hope you will answer these question,as they are what are concerning me about the fairness of these tests.
I am sure you wont answer my questions as they do speak as to the fairness of these tests,if you do.
Then i take back all my critisism i have posted to date.

 

hmmm seems to me you should follow your own advise. I am still waiting for an answer from you in your PM box. :whistle:

 

Mr 392.

Yes the Tombhawk was yanked and sent packing (rest its soul) to a new home. It appears that maybe you are coming into this saga a few episodes late my friend. I of all know exactly what is going on. Not one individual vendor was given proprietary information over the other. There is a lot of information about this test that will stay behind the scenes and only with certain vendors of certain cylinder heads for very specific reasons. This test was nothing more than a "SHOOTOUT" like at the street races, put up or shut-up. All vendors where given a fair shake and I made a post asking those that want in to call or pm me some 5 months back. Those that where not gun shy jumped in immediately, those that contemplated never joined. To me this speaks a lot. Each vendor was told "send me a set of heads that you feel are the best for a 5.7L based 392. They where given the cam specs, exhaust package and other basic information. I was playing "you John the customer". I visually looked at the heads as you would, inspected them basically sized up there quality control. I did this for my own reasons as well, I'm a full time shop and I have my own customers that come to me and ask "I want 100 rwhp" what can you do. So it's important that I know what products will work for me, like shipping, packaging, customer service you name it. So you see this test as this l....l I see the test as l.......................................l. Like I said before I'm sharing the results and some of you may think that it's not thorough enough for you, if it's not than enjoy the reading if it is then put it in your back pocket and look for more info. One thing that some of you rogue posters need to know, I'm at a very friendly level with all these vendors, from a business level and some at a friendship level. It's damn near impossible for me to show any form of favoritism to one over the other. These vendors went above and beyond what many "other" vendors would not do and I'm not just saying vendors here but in general for other vehicles as well i.e. ford, honda, chevy and so on. So please I ask keep this civil and respect the others on this forum that are very interested in this test. Some may feel threatened by asking a question they feel is important only to get bashed or flamed by internet geniuses.

 

Question: are you the only vendor that has been given the dyno results,if this is an impartial test why do you already have the results.

I was given my results and I was surprised at how well they performed even damaged.

QUESTION:Why would they use the same hhp cam that had over 60 dyno pulls done to it with your heads on it.????.

What cam should they have changed to? I wish they would have put our cam in it. If we were paying them for the test, I can assure you they would be using our cam.


QUESTION:why not put each set of heads on the car,and only tune wot,this would be a completely fair test for each head.

He did tune each set as I and everyone has said 100 times.

QUESTION: since you supply hop with heads for all there indy strokers,dont you think you should have made sure that your heads did not receive ANY special treatment,like 60 dyno pulls worth of custom tuning.

Josh has built one hemi motor so far with a Callies kit that he bought from FRI, not sure where Indy came from. Considering this ONE motor has our heads on it, you could say that all of their motors have our heads, but again, this is just one motor so far.


Question; WERE ALL VENDORS TOLD UP FRONT THAT THE PPP HEADS WOULD BE THE ONLY HEADS THAT would receive a complete 60 dyno run custom cmr tune.

As far as I know, all vendors knew they would be dynoed using the same tune. Again, all the dyno time was mostly for closed loop fuel trim tuning, not WOT.


I am sure you wont answer my questions as they do speak as to the fairness of these tests,if you do.
Then i take back all my critisism i have posted to date.

Ok, now edit all of your criticism as I answered all of your questions. Not sure why you thought I wouldnt answer them, they were not that hard.


On a side note, if we were paying someone to favor us, dont you think we would have stopped them from stating our heads were damaged and dont you think we would have prevented them from stating who does our porting for us? Me and Josh are far from best friends, but we have a great working relationship and thats it. He found an issue, he told us about the issue, we fixed it, and he posted it for the world to see.

 

Hemiguys true identity.
http://www.dodgetalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2226271&postcount=60

I called him out on it today and sure enough it was him. He is an avid PRD customer that drives a truck with their 383 stroker in it. Should have known it was a disgruntled owner of the last place heads.

I want to go on the record saying that I have owned a set of PRD heads and I know they would have performed better had it not been for a rocker/retainer issue, so I am in no way saying anything derogatory about these heads as they might have won the comp had they performed to their capability.

 

Busted! Nice work Andy.

 

How about posting the whole thread.

http://www.dodgetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191547&page=3

I will no longer "Negativley" post in this thread or the one over on DT. I've stated my "Opinion" so you all can take it with a grain a salt.

(Movin' On)

 

I wasnt hiding the thread, lol, anyone can view the entire thread through my link also, I was linking them directly to you to see how sad you are to make a fake identity just to defend the product you purchased. Very sad considering you wanted to buy a cam from us......... A cam that we spec'ed out for you only to have you buy that same cam from Stu.

 

Is Hemiguy Platnum Hemi at LX?

 

And here is the real Mr. 392

http://www.dodgetalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2226338&postcount=63

Seems he is another PRD customer with a stock block.