I’m in the market for brake pads for my 07 Charger SRT8. I use the car as a track day car; with 11 track days scheduled this year I’m looking for ways to improve my braking system. The factory Brembo pads that came with the car were not up to the task, someone suggested using Hawk HP Plus pads and I used them last year. I was fairly happy with them, a little aggressive on the rotors but tolerable. Here are the contenders for my 09 season Porterfield R-4 EBC yellow stuff Carbotech XP12 What would you guys suggest?
Skip through the first few posts until you reach DadsSRT8's post. Continue from there... http://www.srtconnection.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13421&highlight=Brakes
I use my car for both street and track days, about 4 or 5 a year. I found the factory pads to be fair. I work with Warren at The Brake Man for years with pads for Viper Club track days. I am getting ready to try a new pad he has for both street/track #93, you may want to look into what we used for the Viper's a #3 (track) pad or his racing (Nascar) #84 pad. Warren had 40 years in the Brake bussines, he or Cory will be able to help you out.
i love my ebc yellows. ive got 12000 on them and almost 65% left and they stop better then stock with a little less dust.
I switched from the posi-quiet metallic pads to the EBC yellow stuff ... I have about 10,000 on the posi quiets and still have plenty to pad left to last me another 10 - 20000. These pads were great for street use but I heard they will not hold up well on a road course .. I switched to the EBC yellow stuff because I am attending the shophemi.com and pedders suspension road track event on march 30th .. I will post my feedback of the pads after the event..
i was thinking about the Porterfield RS-4 (not the R-4) they would work good , but, after about, 10 - 12 mons on track that they would have fade. This is from a friend that races Vintage Cars using Porterfield for years, I an curious enough to ask the difference between the RS-4's and the R-4's
X2 on the Porterfields. I have a email out to Carbotech, seems like alot of the vet guys have them on at the track, and they claim to have newer technology than the carbon and iron brake compounds that other company have.
I think there XP-12 may-be the same or close to the coefficient of friction of The Brake Man's #84's (.45 & can take heat upward of 1500*)
I've heard good things about the porterfields and have them ordered for my car. The R-4 is a race compound that wont work well until up to temperature while the R4S will work well cold on the street and still be acceptable at the track. The recommendations I've gotten is to change the pads at the track to race pads and return to street pads before heading home. That makes the most sense even if it is more work. Les
R-4 needs rotor temps of 450+ to do its work, and on an LX you'll hit 450 in nothing flat. Its when the rotor hits 1250 that you have to worry about performance. http://porterfield-brakes.com/images/portrace2008_11_06_02_41_04.pdf Look at the graphs on Page 3. For R-4S, thats not a curve I'd want on a front track pad. And Porterfield advertises R-4S as a hi perf street and autocross compound. Not a track compound. I use R-4 on my rear pads, and its been the best thing since sliced bread back there. Just enough grip to do the job but not so much that it demolishes the rotors. And they have never caught on fire, which actually happened to me once with another street pad. I'm hearing big things about one of Raybestos' racing compounds, which is recommended by Porterfield for these cars. But there is some question as to whether it is actually available. If it is available, and its what I have been privately told it is, thats your pad... but keep street pads for swapping in because these things are serious.
MoneyPit if you use the R-4's on the rear what do you use on the front? What I find interesting is that all those vitage cars do do not even come close the the weight of the LX. I just spent this weekend at the Street of Willow Springs. And your going to say why the small track. And the answer is 1) the price $200. for 2 days & 2) It's more of a technical track. Also I want to break in my Nitto NT 05's and to try The Brake Man's #93 Compound (Street & Track) Pad. Which worked really well for me. I like The Brake Man Pads because they are very linear and are not aggressive to the rotors.I choose this pad because I did not care about the dust. This is a semi-metallic pad & I was looking for the performance. They have a #91 Compound that is similiar to the #93 that is a Ceramic Pad with no dust. They also have a #3 Compound that is an Autocross/Track Pad. I have heard that some racers have even gone a whole season with out changing pads. If your looking for that inical bite like Hawk or PFC (race pad), but, still rotor friendly they have a #84. As an option I would suggest, give Cory a call at The Brake Man 805-987-7867, and just talk to him about what your looking for & what you have used in the past. Charles
!!! Start another thread or add on to one of the NT05 threads.. but we want to hear what you think about the NT05's !!!
Wilwood Polymatrix H. I have some rather serious upgrades as my Magnum is a dedicated track car. I use the W6A calipers with thermolock insulated pistons to keep the brake fluid from heating up. Oh no I'm not. I'm a big fan of twisty tracks. I'll be on Laguna Seca on the 27th of this month, I'm going back to Thunder Hill for the second time this year on the 6th of June and I'm spending July 4 on Infineon. I wouldn't call any of those 'big' tracks but I would say Streets is pretty tight. Its good for your driving skills and bad for the guy in the small car who has to point by a sedan or station wagon and admit his driving sucks Well, I spent about two years of track time figuring out what the optimal pads are for an LX. That helps me but hot you because I changed the rules and am not using those OEM Brembo's, which are challenged when it comes to serious road course pads to say the least. The H's are good for a 0.65 friction up to full temp, and I've found them to be a perfect front pad when you are turning serious laps. I can reduce front rotor temps by overbiasing to the rear with a roughly 0.62 Polymatrix B, but that increases my rotor replacement rate on the rear, where I am running rather expensive Wilwood rotors (I use the cheapie SRT rotors in the front). I'd rather replace the fronts if I am only paying $175 for a pair, shipped. I'll take a look at what the guy has but I seriously doubt they get any better. I can upgrade my pads one more step if I want to with Wilwood compounds -- which is essentially a full on NASCAR pad -- but then I start getting into a really unfriendly compound that again reduces rotor life even further than I already have to put up with (3 track days, 4 if I am lucky, which I seldom am). I can already give you one: They are great on the street and SUCK on the track compared to two other tires I have used. Good idea to start a thread. I have track video of me sliding off course because they don't want to stick when you heat them up and run them on a big LX. Great stuff if you are a Subaru I suppose.
UPDATE: I have 3 track days on the HPS pads.... for a dual purpose pad I like them over everything else I have tried to date, including the EBC reds. Unless you are planning to strictly use your car as a track car these pads will do you well... I will not go off topic on this point.. as you guys are covering this pretty well... The HPS do dust on the track.. which is a good thing to me.. cause it means you are stopping.. and I encountered very little fade after 120 miles of road course use in two days on my last event (160 minutes of track time at speed over two days, 4) 20 min sessions).. and then drove 2 hours home in LA traffic without any negative side effects.. Just my $0.02... on the brakes.. I was on Nittos.. Invos this past weekend and again they did well.. I also was monitoring the tire pressures and temps (inner mid & outer) as well. I started out with cold pressure settings at 33.5 lbs... tire pressures went up as high a 9 lbs on the working tiers; (Lt frt/Rt rear & about 7 - 8 lbs on the Rt frt/Lt rear) temps were with in 5 - 10 degrees across each tire.. so this tells me my alignment and pressures are pretty much dead on.. this was at BRP which was set up in the 13 CW layout, 3.1 mile course... with day time temps in the mid 90's... New sways worked well here too.. obviously with a hotter track the tires got warmer. I felt that the grip stayed pretty consistent as long as I did not try to go real deep into the coroners and toss the Maggie around.. fun for a little bit but this became too much work trying to recover and keep from going off ... smoother was faster.. but you should see the reaction when the Maggie goes sideways at the apex and exiting a corner and one subsequently powers out of it... scares the crap out of the Miatas, Mitsus, Porsches and BMWs folks.. they don't try to pass you when you are going sideways... the guys in the Lister do this on purpose all day long..
Let me start with I am no expert, & I have not upgraded my car they way you have. But there are many questions that come to mind? MoneyPit & DadsSrt8, is that when useing an aggressive pad they will wear rotors. the wear part of a braking system is or should be the pads. Wear = cost. If I show you an expensive (aka more than your pay) to start with, but as time goes by would be less. As far as I know a coeffecient of fiction at .65 is high and relates to rotor wear. The Brake Man's #84 is a .45 that can handle 1400* (#81 are use at tracks like Martinsville) I've work with "Warren" The Brake Man for a long time & I have heard that racers using his products that get thru a season on the same pads & rotors. There an Outlaw racer that has use the same rotor setup for more than 5 years. MonetPit send me your calipler or brake pad numbers or size if your interested in trying something, I believe "Warren" has a pad that will fit your caliper. And Ken when your done with the HPS's (and check rotor wear). MoneyPit the W6A is it not a 6 pistons caliper? When your done with pads aren't they not tapered? That caliper should have some defliction in it? Can you send me a picture of the wear of the center piston? Didnn't you just upgrade to the caliper, what was your last caliper?
SP... I am on my 2nd set of rotors.... first set were factory originals the second set are slotted... and have been turned once when the Hawks went on.. I saw a slight impression the size of the old pads and few spots where it looked as the pads had left a hard residue on the rotors.. I have just turned 19K on the odometer.. EBC pads imo have a harder compound, tend to hold up well in track conditions.. but also do wear the rotors and are not quite what I would consider a LA type traffic street able pad.. now maybe going to a EBC pad and rotors system will produce different results... Maybe the factory rotors are a not as hard as a after market rotors.. I have not looked into this aspect.. one of Matt's many upgrades was the entire brake system... Yes I will/do check the rotors and at all brake changes and after each track event.. (along with other things).. so far the HPS are a good fit with the factory rotors.. I am a not quite as "hard core" with the Mag as some others .. as I wish to still have a decent street vehicle that I can drive to the track have some fun and drive home.. yet if the wife and kids want to go on a road trip, we can without worrying about the stiffness of the ride or being concerned if the car will hold up during the trip.. which is a little different route than others have done or may do.. I have another project for the harder core stuff..
Agreed that the wear should be the pads, but you're forgetting a simple and unfortunate reality of these cars: Physics. We are racing 4400 lb behemoths and you simply cannot find an optimal braking solution. What you have to concern yourself with is parts survival. We are talking rotor temps in the front that are 1250 degrees at Laguna Seca. That means new fluid with a dry boiling point of 570 degrees ... that boils anyway. Caliper temperatures (not rotors... calipers) at 600 degrees. Six Hundred. Rotor wear is literally a non-issue in this world. When you heat cycle rotors like this, they crack. Plain and simple. They never get a chance to wear. Here's a picture of a rotor I just took off. These rotors have three DAYS on them. Click the image for the really ugly full size closeup. I have seven more like it in the garage, a new set on the car and another new set just arrived from my secret el cheapo rotor vendor. Why do they wear so fast? Why do I get more wear? Short answer: I go faster. I recently ran consistent 1:49's at Laguna Seca and let me tell you... NOBODY is doing that in a 4400 lb sled on that track. And if they are trying it while I'm on the track, they are looking at my taillights. I've just made some changes that I expect will - with luck - put me a full second or two down on what is already an unofficial LX lap record that is a full five *seconds* faster than the next LX guy who posted times. Where was I? oh yeah... If you want fast lap times and you are willing to kill parts to get them... this is the reality you will reconcile yourself to. Rotor wear is not a factor because you will break the rotors long before you wear them out. You won't find any of those guys running on 4400 lb cars. Thats the rub. An LX is NOT a race car, period. Try to run it like one at the same speeds the other race cars run (I am now in the Advanced run groups, oftentimes with full race-prep drivers and while I'm not leading the pack, I keep up) and your equipment pays the price. You are correct that more friction coefficient does indeed mean more rotor wear. It also means more 'grab'. More grab isn't necessarily better, either, if the brakes grab and stop the wheels from turning (i.e. induce a skid. On our cars that means engaging ABS). What I found was that the more grabby pad ... worked better, for longer. Faster lap times. I am completely ignoring rotor wear as the rotors will die anyway. Where I am now is bound to sound weird without the background info that goes into where I am now. I spent two years trying a LOT of pad combinations, and I assure you I didn't start out here. This is where I ended up after trial and error. FYI as an aside, to help control the rotor situation in front I have tried cryo'ing the rotors (not worth the trouble... they still crack, just more slowly) and have added ... spindle ducts that feed the center of the rotor and are powered by 175 cfm marine duty bilge fans. The ducts alone are worth 200-250 degree rotor surface temp reduction, and when I put the fans on they are good for 350-400... and that means that instead of 2 days rotor survival I am up to 3-4. I am interested, as the W6A is a brand-new animal for me and I may indeed be able to back off a grade on the pads. What I have now is borderline experimental for Wilwood as this caliper just came out and they don't have a real market for this full-on race pad just yet. I have a current and backup set of track pads, but I'm not averse to swapping something in to see what happens. Yes it is 6-piston, as was the Wilwood BSL6r that came before it, that I more or less killed after a little over two seasons... it still worked, but you can only heat cycle alloy like I did for so long before it starts becoming worrisome. Plus the BSL6 was known to be 'adequate' while the W6A is over the top in stiffness and sheer size. 20% increase in pad surface too. The W6A's have not yet seen a track day, so I have not yet seen a worn out set of pads, BUT the BSL6's would evidence angled wear IF I didn't tighten the bridge bolt something fierce. After doing that, the angling was only noticeable if I grabbed a set of calipers and measured them. The W6A's are a totally different and massive design. I'm *hoping* to see flat wear based on what I've been told, but frankly I seldom let a set of pads go so far down to the backing plates that the angling would ever become a factor. edit: I missed one: wear on the center piston: None relative to other pistons on the BSL6. Really none of them had any visible wear other than heat discoloration. On that caliper the center piston is a big one. Can't get pics as I've already sent the calipers off to the guy who is going to rebuild them and figure out how to mount them on his AWD Magnum that he road races.
