SAFC issues help! Going really lean after install (long post)

Ok this will probably be a really long post just to get all the possible details in so I apoligize in advance for that.

Let me first start out by saying I'm not the best with electronics and tuning, so what might be obvious to someone else might not be to me.

Ok, Here's the details. I have a 04 srt with every single bolt on you can name, and meth and cams, stock untouched turbo and mani s1 pcm on s2 injectors. A while back I got a dtec fcbc. The dtec buffer board failed and the only way I could get it to run was to loop the wires back to the pcm and go off pcm control so I could drive. A while ago I swapped out my AGP WGA for a FM WGA and I had it at 12psi because I forgot what psi I was tuned at. Now I was on the stage 1 pcm and stage 2 injectors and was running 10.5 afrs at 12psi and turned it up to 14psi and was at 10.0 afrs. After seeing it get richer I gave it a break.

So the day I was going to put the new buffer board in, I connected the dtec back up again on the old one to see if it would run. It did, weird. I put the stage 1 injectors back in and decided to stay at low boost because the car was running so rich I didn't want to be killing my gas mileage. Oh also when I put the s1 injectors back in I disconnected the line from the busted boost solenoid and put it to the back of the turbo (other end being at the wga) at the same time, which eliminated the vac line from the brake booster to the tb. I did this to see if I could adjust boost of the wga since my solenoid was busted and I couldnt use the ebc part of the dtec fcbc. So we took it out. 14psi I was at 13.9 afrs. Adjusted the wga, and the boost didn't change and the afrs wouldn't change, so we said ok just don't go WOT and you can drive it (b/c it's my daily)

So I put the s2 injectors back in one day and the afrs were staying the same 13.9. So I had my friend reflash my pcm because the pcm learned the tune (which I thought was impossible, but happened to another local as well so I guess it was possible). So my friend reflashed the pcm with the s2's in there and I could smell the fuel running richer when it idled. I took it out for a drive. Afrs were the same 13.9.

I put my safc in, zero'd out all the settings, tried adjusting the boost and no boost level change and tried tuning the car, and the afrs we got to 13.5 at best and one run was like 14.X. So we said enough of this and stopped.

The only things I can come up with are the pcm reflash didn't work and it's still learned the previous tune. Or when I reflash my stage 1 pcm I have to have the s1 injectors in there until it learns and then throw the stage 2's in rather than flash it with the s2's in there. Or, when I took out the vac line, the car wasn't seeing boost somehow, which I can understand solves my boost problem, but idk how that affects my afr problem. My vac lines are one from the wga to the back of the turbo and then 1 from the tb to the bov, T-ed off into my meth controller. However the diagram says there should be one from the brake booster to the tb and that's what I don't have. When I had the solenoid on before with that line in tact, my afrs with the s2s were like 10.5 where they're supposed to be without fuel control. Could this be the problem? And if it is what size are our vac lines, I have to run to autozone and get some. Thanks for reading my story, any advice is appreciated, this has been going on for about a year and I'm about ready to sell the car. Please help. Thanks

Bryan

 

ok first off i have a few questions to clarify what's going on....

1. what reflash are you talking about? we cannot reflash these ecu's with anything other than stock s0 and that's only with a drb. do you have a sct maybe?

2. return your vacuum lines back to stock. get the line from the break booster to the tb back on there so that the car knows what's going on. lines are 5/8" if memory serves me right.

3. you went from talking about a dtec fcbc to a safc. did you remove the dtec and put in a safc? or are you trying to run both? what exactly is in the car?

4. what soilinoid is broken?

 

You can reflash any Stage PCM including stock with a DRB. It doesn't only go for stock pcm's. Plenty of locals running Stage PCM's around here that were flashed using a DRB.

 

When was the last time you did a boost leak test?

Without a tuning device with the mods you have the car should be running rich.

What are your afr's at idle?

I doubt it learned your tune because after a reflash the first 1k miles is when the PCM is learning everything and learning your style of driving. Same goes for if you buy a stage pcm new.

You could have a bad pcm Bryan.

 

Also Bryan are you sure those s2 injectors aren't bad? Check injector flow, make sure none are leaking and that they are shooting out precisely.

Test your fuel pressure as well.

Also check your spark plugs, spark plug gap, etc.

 

By flashed I mean a drb reflash, because apparently my pcm learned the dtec tune I had on it (which as I said thought was imposible but apparently not)

I had a dtec fbc and I when I decided to take it off to put a safc on (because the dtec buffer board failed and the solenoid wasn't working) I took off the solenoid which eliminated that line from the brake booster to the tb. the only reason I mention it is because that was the ONLY thing changed except for swapping the injectors and reflashing the pcm and I have a feeling the vac line mismatch plays a role if not the whole role in my problem.

The old boost solenoid on the dtec was.

 

Last leak test was at your house when I did the first oil change.

The car runs rich at idle, I can smell it, but the afrs didn't change. I'm wondering if that vac line is causing some sort of interference with these problems, because my wga doesn't change boost levels when I turn it and I'm wondering if because of that, maybe the pcm is freaking out?

Afrs at idle are pretty normal from what I remember. I can't remember the exact number but I think it's in the 13s/14s or so? (don't quote me on that)

That's what dan and myself came up with because even when we swapped back injectors it was the same afrs as it was with the s1 inj's in there. but like I said that line was the only thing changed which makes me wonder. Because when the dtec was on (but bypassed) I was getting the normal 10.5 afrs at WOT with the s2 injectors an no fuel controller, which is where I should be.

When I reflashed it, I did it with the s2 injectors in there. Do I have to do it with the stage 1's until it learns and then put the s2's in there or should that not make any difference?

 

S2's should be fine, It's always worth testing them though

FP I have no idea how to check, I don't have a returnline nor can I get any sort of reading from a gauge or anything because I don't have one

I'm using those hemi plugs which were recently changed. I'm unsure of the gap though. I'm not getting any sort of blowout

 

Your due for a boost leak test since that was long time ago.

What vac lines are not in there place. One of the lines that comes off the brake booster? What lines are you currently running on your solenoids?

Being that you have the FM wga you should be able to run it on PCM control boost correct? You currently have it off pcm controlled boost? So the line just goes from the wga to the back of the turbo?

If the only thing that has changed is the removal of a vac line or more I would then put all those back. Besides the dtec and bc being removed. Reset the pcm and drive.

I don't think it should make a difference if you run s1 or s2 injectors, the s2 injectors will just make the car run richer but the pcm adapts to the flow. But if your running rich you'll need to take away some fuel. You already know that jazz hahaha.

 

This is how Ozzy and I tested the injectors...

-Put a towel over your intake manifold
-Unplug your coil pack
-Remove the two dowels that hold the fuel rail to the intake manifold (These are size 13mm and these are what the injector covers snap into)
-Pull the rail w/injectors intact off the intake manifold
-Hold the fuel rail up/angle with the injector tips pointing towards the towel
-Have another person bleep the key like their going to start the car/try starting the car
-At this point the injectors should have squirted fuel and should have been precisely and the same amount. You can check by the marks on the towel.
-Then check the injectors to see if any are dripping.

As far as fuel pressure goes. There's a way to test for it but its sort of a pain. Makes it easy if you had an 03 fuel rail but you don't. The only way to test it to make some sort of fitting device to go inbetween the fuel line that runs from the rail to the back. I never tested the FP on my car, just tested the injectors.

I don't use Hemi plugs as I haven't seen any tests/testing on them. I use NGK 4306.

 

I'll give it a try sometime when I can get away from work and get a social life lol.

If the injectors seemed to be fine, anything else you think I should do?

Is it even possible that the pcm is freaking out and causing this to happen or is 100% a fuel issue? I was also told to swap my stock fuel pump back in and see if it helps and that it has to be a fuel and fuel only issue because of the open loop system to pcm uses or something like that

 

Any updates on this issue?:future:

 

He's narrowed it down to it being injectors. He thinks one of his is bad. He swapped other injectors in and his afr's went into the rich 9's-10's.

 

That's good to hear. Glad there wasn't any damage.

...and next time someone has a problem with about 50 different parts and terms I've never heard of I'll just tell them to change injectors :stars:

 

Lmfao! That was great!

 

well I'm bumping this again because I haven't figured it out. I got some new info I wasn't aware of at the time.

I thought it was the injectors. I swapped my s2's with some 750s and my afrs were 9.6 and couldn't even idle. So we pulled 10% of fuel across the board on the safc and afrs were 10.0 at WOT at the same boost which felt REALLY good. Then what I just found out was at 4500rpms the afrs jumped back up to 14.0. WTF that was with the 750s in the car.

We put the s2's back in and it didn't feel nearly as good at the same boost and still went lean just a little earlier than the 750s did. I do need to leak test. We tried raising the boost because Ive had the problem where it was at such a low boost level (12psi) that when we raised the boost (14psi) it got richer. I'm sure it starts going lean once you hit a certain point though but we tried it to see if the same thing would happen. The boost might have raised like 1 psi and we cranked the wga up pretty high which bothers me that it didn't change much.

 

So yesterday we replaced my walbro 255 with a brand new s3 pump and new stock fpr thinking that either could have failed. Took the car out. Same thing, so I guess the fuel pump and fpr was good after all. So we've swapped pumps, fprs and injectors and it hasn't fixed it.

Although my buddy came over took my car out said at WOT it sputtered and jumped rich to lean in the lower rpm range and then went lean and eventually when it got up top it threw a p0108 Map Sensor High code and the car died. He had to reflash it with his drb and it got up and ran fine. And we even tried adding fuel on the safc and it made no difference.

A month ago when I first found this out I was told to replace my MAP sensor by a few people because that could be screwed up. So I replaced it with another stock MAP sensor with about 15k miles on it which is what is on my car now and it hasn't made a difference apparently.

Now I'm really upset. any ideas? Maybe the install has to be gone over, wires soldered. I don't know it has everyone I've talked to stumped and no one knows what it could be

 

First, your not suppose to try to add fuel to these cars... (its been in every Apexi AFC thread for these cars)

Second, if you throw a code as such and the car died... you can always just reset the pcm by disconnecting the negative terminal of the battery to erase the code and try starting the car back up. No need to reflash it. I don't know how many times that pcm has been reflashed in the last couple/few months.

Third, its almost like the voltage to the MAP sensor is getting "clamped". So I would check the wiring on the MAP sensor harness. Worth a shot just to rule it out, from the MAP sensor to about where the harness meets the rest of the engines harness.

Fourth, who installed the AFC? The wires needed to be soldered! Then heatshrink (were applicable) or electrical taped accordingly.

You need to hook a Aeroforce Scangauge to the car and check all parameters.

I would also have that PCM checked to see if its bad.

 

Yeah I was told that adding fuel to the car can throw that code I got.

the pcm has only been drb reflashed twice, I have talked about doing it, but only did it once this month and once last month. The rest was reset by disconnecting the battery as mentioned.

I checked the MAP harness and even replaced the sensor, no difference. It's always worth checking again and redoing and soldering the lines though. I don't have the money for a scanguage, I still have to get a WB. The drb was able to read everything so that was the temp unit we used to check everything. At least until I can afford my own WB and scangauge

 

the problem doesn't make me think it's SAFC related. On the way home from the 2nd ft desoto meet that night I was 10.5afrs @12psi and 10.0afrs@ 14psi. The next day we removed the brake booster vac line for the bc solenoid and tried to hook up the older buffer board before putting in the new one. Put the s1's back in to keep from dumping all that fuel when I drive daily since I keep out of boost anyway I should be safe.

We put the old buffer board on to test it. Car started up fine and not like it was at BMP that day. Weird. We took it out and read the afrs off my tunerbox wideband. Meanwhile we are on s1 injectors. Afrs go to 13.9. We adjust the boost. The boost pressure doesn't change much for some odd reason. Afrs stay the same. We go get the s2's put them in and the afrs stay the same. We don't bother hooking up the new board since the dtec was coming off soon anyway. We bypassed the dtec like we did at BMP to get the car running and it was still the same afrs even off the pcm for some reason. but like I said when it was bypassed the same way the night before it was fine. And all we touched was the wiring and that vac line.

A month later the safc goes on, and the symptoms are still there. We try adjusting the boost almost maxing the wga and the boost pressure goes up maybe only 1psi? So it was before the safc I'm pretty sure but what it could be is beyond me. It might be boost related who knows, it seems a bit crazy though if it really is 14psi to be going that lean on the stock turbo with plenty of fuel.

The pcm could be fried although I'd like not to think that. I still have my stock pcm that I can throw back in. I do plan to go over the wiring either way though. I just don't know what loose wire could have made all this crap happen if that even is the case.