okay lets worst case this

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by markus, Dec 14, 2008.

  1. Quick

    Quick Mgmt. - I can't help you

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    Thanks Cam. I think this will be really interesting (at least for me :D).

    And take your time, we're patient (...after all, we've been waiting almost a year for you to drill your manifold for intake port temps -- i ain't buyin that excuse about ruining it, you've blown up lots more expensive stuff than that :laser: don't hit me, don't hit me, I'm still drinking from last night when the doc said I could go ahead and maybe have a small glass of wine).

    Here's the codes that were listed:
    DTC P0138 HO2S Circuit High Voltage Bank 1 Sensor 2
    DTC P0137 HO2S Circuit Low Voltage Bank 1 Sensor 2
    DTC P0301 Cylinder 1 Misfire Detected
    DTC P2096 or P2098 Post Catalyst Fuel Trim System Low Limit

    And I'm figuring the missing one is one of these (I think someone said that):
    DTC P0108 Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) Sensor Circuit High Voltage
    DTC P1108 BARO to MAP Sensor Comparison Too High

    0138 - due to your tune for the H/C - the code you usually get? old code before the problem.
    0137 - this would be the opposite... too lean compared to the front sensor? or just pegged lean.
    0301 - ok... how come? plug got fouled? how?
    2098 - fine. That jives with the 0137
    0108/1108 - alright. So maybe it's pumping/pulsing compressed air back INTO the intake manifold? that would point towards the intake valve and not the exhaust valve.

    I'm changing my bet to the intake valve.

    I'm stumped on how we went lean on the rear 02.
     
  2. Hemi31

    Hemi31 [email protected]

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    Because the burnt fuel would go back through the intake and cause the burn in the rest of the cylinders to go rich causing the PCM to pull more fuel on that bank.
     
  3. markus

    markus Silver Supporting Members

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    yea, 0138 is the one ive always been getting.
     
  4. Quick

    Quick Mgmt. - I can't help you

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    I think you meant to type "...UNburnt fuel would go back through the intake..."? Assuming that

    I thought of that. But the PCM is adjusting fuel on what the front sensor sees. So it's pulling fuel on that bank to get it down to 14.7. If it gets down to 14.7 then everything should look normal at the sensors right? (cyl_1 isn't doing much of anything and the other 3 are running close to the right a/f) If it pulls down to the max and still doesn't get the exhaust to 14.7 then it looks rich at the sensors. How did we get lean at the rear sensor?

    could it be something with the cat? Like if you dump too much fuel in there the reaction goes wild and it comes out the back way lean?
     
  5. Hemi31

    Hemi31 [email protected]

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    No I typed just what I meant to.....the piston is pumping exhaust back into the manifold through the hanging valve making the rest of the combustion process not so efficient.
     
  6. Quick

    Quick Mgmt. - I can't help you

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    hmmm... I'm not gasping that. I'm trying to :hypno:

    So piston goes down, intake open, and sucks air in while injector fires.
    Piston goes up with intake still hanging open and blows air/fuel back into the manifold. When the piston is almost all the way up (and everything pretty much pushed out back into the manifold) the spark plug fires and maybe we get a little burn. Where's all this exhaust coming from that's getting pumped into the manifold?

    Does the injector fire just before TDC after most of the compression stroke? If that's the case then there wouldn't be much air and most of the fuel woudn't get burnt but I'd expect this to go out the exhaust on the exhaust stroke?

    Markus said they did a compression test which looked ok? but let's say the intake valve is just hanging open all the time. I'd still think we'd get more fuel than lean air pumped back into the manifold.

    Either I'm missing something fundamental here or you're going to have to dumb it down some (haha, I knew this was why nobody responded before but it'll be worth your time. Everybody will love you even more than they already do :huglove:)
     
  7. Hemi31

    Hemi31 [email protected]

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    ok......heres the dumb version.......the more unburnt fuel the 02 sees the more fuel it will pull.So if raw fuel keeps getting pumped out then it will continue to pull it......eventually it pulls so much that the 02 sees a lean condition and starts dumping fuel again......it's a vicious cycle.
     
  8. Quick

    Quick Mgmt. - I can't help you

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    Didn't help... you can feel free to give up any time. I won't get offended. (Cam has the office next to me. He won't get off so easy. lol)

    It's not the normal cycle right? We got a code. The rear sensor went past the lean threshold. Of course I was assuming it was a persistent condition and not cycling out of bounds...

    Maybe I've misinterpreted the code too. Is the code just for a lean condition? or is it that it's too lean *compared to the front sensor*? Although I'm not sure how that would happen since too great of a difference between the front and back sensor would only be caused by the cat. ...heh, you suppose he burned up his cat?

    Just occured to me that those codes are "latched". So I get it that cycling is just as possible as persistent when you see the code.
     
  9. markus

    markus Silver Supporting Members

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    so barney style for me here. are there any other problems?
     
  10. 8yourM5

    8yourM5 Full Access Member

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    Damn man that sucks I am glad you have these guys on here they KNOW THIER SHIT! Any word on better springs I am worried this might happen to me
     
  11. Quick

    Quick Mgmt. - I can't help you

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    I don't think so Markus. We're just trying to do the forensics here. With the initial problem there might have been a few conditions the sensors and PCM went through before hitting a steady state. Maybe it could be cycling. Hard to tell since the codes are stored even after the condition is cleared. We also don't know exactly what codes are possible or not possible for what conditions. And I don't think you can burn up a cat that quickly with extra fuel. That's kind of a slow death thing for cats. probably no effect at all. If something else is wrong it's going to be minor and they'll see it immediately after replacing the spring.

    I'd say 90% chance you replace the spring and everything will be just fine.
     
  12. markus

    markus Silver Supporting Members

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    my springs were used on the old hhp stage 2 kit. they used manley springs back then but since these problems have started popping up theyve switched to psi springs. unless you have 2yr old manley valve springs i think youll be alright.
     
  13. 1bad4dr

    1bad4dr Mr. Meany

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    Did you ever get a hold of Josh?
     
  14. markus

    markus Silver Supporting Members

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    thanks homie, you guys help put my mind at ease

    sir no sir
     
  15. HighHorseman

    HighHorseman Performance Specialist

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    I must have spoken with a different Mark, then. lol

    That's real lucky that no damage was caused. These older Polished Manley's are usually decent springs and there's a whole lot of them out there. Every once in a while one will pop up and go bad but it's still extremely rare. We switched from Manley to PSI after an entire bad batch was released last year and we had a few break right from the get go. Usually bad springs don't last that long. Even though Manley determined there was a manufacturing defect in the batch, we couldn't risk any more failures so we switched over to the PSI's which to date have not had any failures that I am aware of. We have a lot of cars succesfully running the Manleys and it is extremely rare that they fail, especially once they've been run for a while. Mark is getting the PSI's so we know this won't happen again.

    Some of the codes, before you guys get too far, are probably left over from the tune on the car. Mark still has the B&G PCM flash with the rear O2's probably turned off. There were always a few odd codes that would appear with that version of the tune but they never affected anything. The misfire and vacuum codes signify the broken valve spring.

    Josh
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2008
  16. 1bad4dr

    1bad4dr Mr. Meany

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    HOLY CRAP, Josh is on the forum? haha

    Nice to see you alive and well Josh. Thanks for taking care of Markie.

    And tell your internet people to be more active here. :wink:
     
  17. HighHorseman

    HighHorseman Performance Specialist

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    We've been so busy this past year my forum presence has been crap at best. Which sucks, I know, since you all miss me dearly, with my shining personality and impecable smile. One of these days I'll get caught up and back on here... or business will slow down and I'll be back on here. Hopefully the first reason. We always joke around that it's the slow venders that are on the boards. But then again, we're a full shop... despite what 2 cents Erik has to add.

    lol

    I appreciate all of your guys concern, too. By this evening, I was getting several calls to tell me to call Mark. I didn't return back to work until yesterday with PRI this past weekend, so I'm a little behind and hadn't seen Marks message until this evening. Fortunately this is a best case scenario for this type of thing, knock on wood but I've learned to not count my chickens until the deep fryer is hot so we need to see this through til the PSI's are on and this chapter comes to a close.

    3 days NY? That's pretty good.
     
  18. Hemi31

    Hemi31 [email protected]

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    WTF?Only .02 I added was to keep calling.It's ok Josh.....I can tell them to stop calling too:erm:I think maybe I'll steer them all to PPP instead.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2008
  19. Hemi31

    Hemi31 [email protected]

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    Markus you get your car back yet?
     
  20. markus

    markus Silver Supporting Members

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    sir no sir, waiting on that damn spring lol. i do in fact miss josh's impeccable smile. it makes my pants tingle.