DashHawk is in the process of adding the ability to monitor EGT (Exhaust Gas Temperature) with a kit for the DashHawk. http://www.msdignition.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11123 Info from link: ***************************** "DashHawk EGT – Exclusive Online Offer! Do you want to review and record the Exhaust Gas Temperature of your engine? MSD is excited to introduce the new EGT Kit for the DashHawk! The kit is supplied with a new harness and an EGT probe to deliver a plug-in connection once the sensor is mounted. To order an EGT Kit, PN 13101, click here. Exclusive Online Offer - $100! " ******************************** Now lets get technical....I could just "Google it" for research...and will probably still anyway (just to make sure I am not led astray....no offense intended), but I thought other members might like to know also. How important is EGT to an SRT8....what roll does it play? Do you think it is more important than a wideband AFR unit?
I don't know. I have no clue. I was waiting for this thread. I've gathered that it's important but not as immediate as A/F and timing and maybe more important with forced induction. You don't want it to get too hot. Side note. Do we need the DH wideband? I'm using the DH to monitor my pre-cat (sensor 1) temps now? Is that wildly inaccurate? By the way I'm running around 1,100 to 1,200 just puttering around town. With a bit more gas we're at 1,400 to 1,500. Getting on it we're bumping 1,700 or better?
I "assume" that Exhaust Gas Temp is related to some type of proper tuning. At DashHawk it was stated that this is very important for Diesels (probably useless for gas vehicles....lol)....so for us it is probably something like just another parameter (like a lot of the ones I see in my DashHawk) to look at and and go.... hmmmm....now what?
Here you go Quick....since it seems like you and I are the only ones interested in this issue. I love Google research....wealth of info. 2 Great Google finds....including one that talks about EGT and AFR! This one explains EGT importance to turbos and it makes sense: It came from a diesel truck site. So I believe EGT is very important to the performance diesels also. It appears to be a boost related issue. "Exhaust Gas Temperature (EGT) is a good indicator of your engine's performance. Accuracy in Exhaust Gas Temp (EGT) is very important. The turbo doesn't make heat; it absorbs the heat and uses the exhaust pressure. As the exhaust is blown across the turbine blades, the blades spin at incredible speeds. The shaft of the turbine wheel is slaved to the compressor wheel so they spin together. When you spool up the turbine, the compressor turns as well. Generally speaking, the faster it spins, the more boost the turbo will make. The problem comes when you're trying to turn the turbine too fast. To do this, it takes a lot of heat and pressure. If you get the turbine too hot, it can damage the turbo. At 1270 degrees F, the tips of the turbine blades begin to blow. If you get them too hot, they'll straighten out or even melt and you'll ruin the turbo. The factory Garrett turbocharger will pull all day long at 1250 degrees, but in our opinion, 1270 degrees is the DO NOT EXCEED temp for sustained use." More interesting... here is a site that does a good job of telling whiich is more important EGT or AFR. http://www.sdsefi.com/techegt.htm Cut and pasted below Have a nice read....lol "Tuning Via EGT vs, Wide Band/ Narrow Band Meters" "Tuning Via EGT vs, Wide Band/ Narrow Band Meters There seems to be a lot of mystery and misinformation about using exhaust gas temperatures to tune engines. Claims by many EGT gauge manufacturers about it being the best way to tune an engine must be qualified. The BEST way to tune an engine is on an engine dyno- PERIOD. What EGT is good for is a reference for where the engine made maximum torque at wide open throttle. Once removed from the dyno, a similar air/fuel ratio can be established at a later date by dialing in the mixture to achieve the target EGT. It is really the AFR that is important, not the EGT. Most engines will make maximum power at an AFR of between 12.0 and 13.5 to 1 however, the EGT may vary from 1250F to 1800F and is dependent on many factors. It should be mentioned that the target EGT is valid only on the same engine configuration as was used on the dyno. If you change the ignition timing, cams, pistons, headers etc., the optimum EGT may also change. Raising the compression ratio with no other changes will drop the EGT at the same AFR. Retarding the ignition timing will generally raise the EGT at the same AFR. One engine might make best power at 1350 degrees while a very similar engine might be happier at 1500. You can't guess at this or you are simply wasting your money on the instrumentation. Wankel engines have higher EGTs than comparable piston engines due to their lower thermal efficiencies. 1800F is not uncommon here. Some gauge manufacturers say you should tune to achieve maximum or peak EGT for maximum performance. This is incorrect. Peak EGT generally occurs at an AFR of around 14.7- 15.0 to 1 on gasoline. This is far too lean for maximum power and is dangerous under continuous WOT conditions. Many people think that the leaner you go, the higher the EGT gets. This is also incorrect. Peak EGT occurs at stoichiometry- about 15 to 1 for our purposes. If you go richer than 15 to 1, EGT will drop and if you go leaner than 15 to 1 EGT will ALSO drop. It is VERY important to know which side of peak EGT you are on before making adjustments. It is safe to say that peak power will occur at an EGT somewhat colder than peak EGT. You can sometimes feel a lean of peak condition as the mixture is hard to ignite and power will be down a bit as well. Once the AFR gets close to 17 to 1 at WOT, generally the engine will start to lean misfire. Most tuners always recommend to begin jetting or programming from a known very rich initial setting and carefully leaning until torque falls off slightly, then going back richer to the point of max torque. Note the EGT at this setting. Be aware that altitude, barometric pressure and ambient air temperature may affect this optimal temperature to some degree. Are EGT gauges better than AFR meters? Conventional narrow band oxygen sensors and digital LED meters are not the best devices to measure AFR in the richer ranges but they certainly warn of a too lean condition immediately and obviously, without translation by the driver and they are affordable. Meters combined with wide band sensors are supposed to be highly accurate and everyone has jumped on the bandwagon with these lately. Unfortunately the naive and impressionable often don't question the accuracy of these devices. We have seen some dyno plots indicating best power was achieved at AFRs of 9.7 to 1 on gasoline. This is PHYSICALLY AND CHEMICALLY IMPOSSIBLE and shows that either the sensor was bad (leaded fuel used possibly) or the meter was not calibrated properly. Again, the wide band sensors have the same limitations as the narrow band- leaded race gas quickly fouls them. We have heard and read many stories now indicating that certain brands of wideband meters differ as much as 2 points AFR in readings between each other. In other words, the accuracy of some of these devices is highly questionable. Extensive testing with laboratory quality instrumentation on aircraft engines universally indicates that best power is NEVER made at AFRs richer than 12 to 1. Airflow and fuel flow rates are independently measured and each cylinder is instrumented with EGT probes. We recently dynoed a shop road racing Celica on a DynoJet equipped with a wide band meter. The meter was saying that the engine was going super lean (17 to 1) at high rpm so we kept upping the fuel there. The engine lost more and more power as we added fuel. The dyno operator was convinced that the meter was right but logic told us with no serious dip in power on the curve and the fact that the engine was still alive that the meter was not correct. We started leaning the engine down more and the engine started gaining power. Finally, when confronted with this information, the operator checked the water trap for the wide band sensor. Once this was emptied, the AFRs looked reasonable again. We didn't need the wide band to tell us this, only the torque curve from the dyno. We have heard of several other instances with people using wide bands getting erroneous readings and tuning their SDS based on these readings. Then they phone us saying that the system is crap. Look at the dyno curve, when the engine makes its best power at a given rpm, that's where it likes the AFR irregardless of what other instrumentation is telling you. Remember, a bad sensor whether O2 or EGT equals bad information. When the engine sounds crisp and makes great power, you're there. I would suggest that mixture meters and EGT gauges are complimentary. EGT gauges have the advantage of working long term with leaded fuel which will clog oxygen sensors. EGT gauges are widely used to set mixture on engines used for steady state high power applications where operation has been carefully documented such as in aircraft. The choice would depend on the application. Both are better if you can afford them."
Hmmm, surprisingly I was guessing something very similar. I was hoping for a little more magic from EGT though. One thing I didn't see was reaction time. Mainly temp and then guage. Now if we could just get everyone to nail the exact EGT we're looking for in different modes... That last one sort of implied that EGT might be more for long term monitoring? Track EGT while tuning the engine and then monitor to see if it changes over the long term. Something like "my EGT seems to be running a bit off at WOT so I probably need to change my plugs" type of thing. Seems like we want A/F to be somewhere 12.2 to 12.8 at WOT? I just want to make sure I don't burn a hole in anything. I figure a A/F gauge that goes red at 13.0 should do it. If it alarms with my foot on the floor it's time to lift. I've been sort of watching my EGT on the DashHawk. It doesn't seem to make significant, sustained changes really fast... but I'll have to try that again and pay close attention this time. Like how fast does it jump when I floor it. Maybe it's our sensors? As I mentioned in my post above the range is pretty large. By the way, while browsing for A/F gauges I ran across a really nice comparison chart of maybe 10 of the best/common known ones. Mainly focused on reaction time. The implication was that 400 milliseconds was poor. Unfortunately my previous favorite, PLX DM-100 (for the coolness factor), was kind of in the middle of the pack. Still solid though. I think the FAST did well. And of course Innovate's stuff. Crap, I had finally settled on the LC-1 (no gauge) into the DH. Looks like they've scrapped the current HawkEye (to expensive to mfg) and it's back to the drawing board (usually means it's dead). sigh. And now mounting has become an issue for me so maybe the ugly, flat FAST gauge. Wish I could find that comparison chart again.
Where are you watching EGT on the DashHawk? Did you buy the EGT kit for the DashHawk or what parameter are you watching? I don't think it is dead...our PC software and DashHawk still show configuration settings fo the HawkEye and it is still be beta tested. I do expect it to be a tad expensive though. I am surprised that more members (considering a lot have DashHawks) are not interetsted in the HawkEye capabilities...but if they haven't been visiting the DashHawk forums they don't know what they are missing. It is like this thread is in the twilight zone...I shold ahev tried the "Off Topic Discussion" forum...lol
No kit. We got 'em. Well I suspect everybody has them but we report them. Maybe the sensors aren't accurate but I got the impression that not everyone has these available. Under the general parameters (not DCX specific) Sensors -> Cat Temp Bank 1 Sensor 1 (CatB1S1 on the display) Sensors -> Cat Temp Bank 2 Sensor 1 I believe there are sensors before and after the cats to monitor cat efficiency or function? I believe Sensor 1 to be in front of the cats. Well, Ken sort of said that mfg cost would make the price point way too high. Sort of mumbled about looking into a lower cost processor and some such... sounded just like a canceled project to me. Hope not. Having that integrated with the rest of the logging would be just huge. I'm surprised too. I though a whole lot of people had them. Maybe that's just memories from the old days (haha, a year ago).
I beieve you are correct here....so why add EGT, unless it is better closer to exhaust side of turbo out...or in? Or on a race car these points (before and after cat) may not exist.
I don't think a lot of cars have that or if they do they don't have access to it through OBDII from the ECM. and diesels don't have cats right?
Haha. When I was driving the semi I had a diesel rabbit (you could fill the tank with what spilled out of the truck). Neither had cats. Of course there weren't any emission controls on diesels then either.
Googling "catalytic converters for diesel" shows a lot of results for better cats for diesels and sellers.
I can tell you that commercial aviation engines all monitor EGT as the primary tool to evaluate the health of the engine. When the engines come out of a shop visit they are tested and the results are expressed as "EGT Margin". There are max temps for different sections of the engines (set by the OEM I believe) and the more margin you have the better. The only downside I see is that EGT isn't a fast reacting parameter, its logged to watch for "trends". If you're rolling WOT and your fuel pump lays over on you, it's going to take awhile for EGT to change, where A/F would hopefully tell you immediately something was wrong.
I have been looking at this did you guys end up getting it. I have monitored EGT with the Diablo and get 950 at idle and 1738 at 6200 rpm Cat temps are about the same at 6200 rpm. I was told the Diablo was pretty close to a EGT gauge
Errr, no. I believe EGT monitoring is going to take a wideband interface just like A/F monitoring would. DashHawk (MSD) was doing development on an adaptor that would take a wideband controller output (0-5v) and make that available as a PID on the bus to be queried like all the other PIDs. They did a prototype, decided it was way to expensive, had designed and were working towards another hardware spin... And then the entire DashHawk development team was canned/closed down (or went elsewhere). So now it's unclear what kind of support will be available for the DashHawk and it looks as if the chances for future development/enhancements on or for the DashHawk are slim to none. You can currently monitor pre-cat and post cat temps with the DashHawk but I'm not sure how to read them or if it's even accurate. You get really high numbers (like 1850 - 2000) but it does seem like it warms up with the exhaust so the numbers change in the direction you would expect. I'll have to try it again and see what the range and readings are like. They're getting that from the PCM so apparently the car monitors that? Or if it doesn't that might explain the readings. Maybe it's like narrowband is to wideband for a/f? For a/f I got a PLX gauge but it's not integrated with the DashHawk for monitoring. Might be time to start a thread looking for the next OBDII monitor type tool. I figure in about a year I'll be ready for the next thing. Everything the DashHawk is (including all the mfg specific pid support), plus wideband inputs, plus different interfaces, plus better fancier in car display. Something like a DashDaq display merged with DashHawk and Diablo Trinity functionality with Autoenginuity's variety of interface options. haha, maybe we can get Ron to fund the startup company.
