I think he has explained it so many times in other threads he got sick of writing chapter after chapter about it, that was his short sweet and last version. He knows his stuff though.
Well Tony to a point, alot of what he said was correct about adaptive stratagy and "learning", however alot of the generic drive cycle information was totally incorrect regarding the Chrysler new gen Hemi Can Bus/NGC4, and drive cycle times/criteria. And I totally disagree on resetting the TCM, I have found the factory default setting to be superior in shifting stratagy to leting the TCM find the easy shift point after driving a while. The way he wrote the first post was from a Chrysler trained techs point of view and not from an Chrysler Electrical Engineer or operating system developer or common PCM hacker so some of his references where based on a "standard", and that being the vehicle customer doesn't know anything about his/ hers car. Jeff
hmmm, it makes sense from a service tech's point of view. The guy did a wonderful job of giving a high level system overview of how things are tied together. Anyone pulling fuses, tinkering with the Predator, etc., should have at least this level of understanding. Keep in mind that those guys (generally speaking) don't have an understanding of the "internals". Like the control algorithms, adaptive algorithms, etc. They have an overview and follow a cookbook set of procedures. Like Jeff pointed out, he was wrong on some of the technical details. Like the fuel adaptives can correct 50% instead of 25%. I'm curious. What were the few misconceptions you had?
the "learning" cycle....... i always thought that the adaptives would "learn" within 3 times of warm up - cool down...... not sure where i got that impression, but reading how the cycles are dictated as to the specific events that help the pcm learn was one such thing....... asfor the "internals", i leave that to guys like you and net to debate..... i just sit back and read and learn!!! lol
I am with the TCM reset on adaptives, probably why they are in the Predator. And it does take a little road time under certain conditions to set the shifting adaptives. Last week I had my car CMR tuned on a dyno and on the street by DynoSteve of RDP Motorsports. He took my car out, after the dyno tune, to.... as I now know..."set the adaptives". He also reset the TCM adaptives in the Predator when we started our "Street Tune". He did about 3 or 4 runs of 0-60 1-2 runs in Autostick, to get the shifting right. At one point during the "Street Tune", he said we had to get 1 more 0-60 in for the adaptives to complete. On the last run we got to 60 but got busted (but that is a diff story). I could tell the "crispness" of upshifting and downshifting was changing thru every run. In the begining of the 0-60 runs, my car would not get a 2nd gear chirp from the 275/40s, after he was done it would chirp easily even in Auto under only 3/4 throttle. He also greatly improved throttle response to the pedal (I believe this was done on the Dyno). The car responds right when I throttle it down, no more seeming like i have given it 1/4 throttle pedal before it really starts to respond. He also told me the shifting performance was not perfect and would wear off in city driving of a few days. Now I just need to get hold of him and get him to come off that "tuning" procedure. I wish I had been paying closer attention, but I was enjoying the ride and watching for cops.
From what you said above, apparently not very well... busted? Did Steve claim that's the way they drive in Australia and he didn't know any better? What do they do with an Australian license? lol
Yea I know he took a turn and got on it and they were right there. 60 in a 30....ouch the cops were ticked at first whe they ask what we thought the speed limit was and Steve told them around 60 and I said oh wait... he is taliking in KPH. Maybe they thoght he was looking at the MPH, thinking KPH....lol Strangest and best thing was one of the cops had just got back from a Austrailian vacation and they started talking and the mood changed quick. They didn't even ask for his license or mine. They said take off and watch the speed. These were Torrance, CA cops, in a bad neighborhood even. Steve also said he had been thru it before, he says the cops have to go thru a lot of paperwork to ticket him.
Ok Quick, I had a little time to do a copy and paste from a NAG1 repair manual I have regarding TCM adaptives Adaptation data is stored permanently and to some extent, can be diagnosed. Table 14 Adaptation Driving Style Adaptation not written to memory. Moves shift point. Needs certain inputs to adapt. Occurs every ignition key cycle. Shift Time Written to memory. Adjusts Shift Time from one gear to the next. Needs certain values to adapt. Fill Pressure Written to memory. Pressure adjustment that affects shift quality. Needs certain values to adapt. Fill Time Written to memory. The time it takes to apply a shift member. Needs certain values to adapt. Driving Style Adaptation The shift point is modified in steps based on the information from the inputs. The control module looks at inputs such as: • Vehicle acceleration and deceleration (calculated by the TCM) • Rate of change as well as the position of the throttle pedal (fuel injection information from the PCM) • Lateral acceleration (calculated by the TCM) • Gear change frequency (how often the shift occurs) Based on how aggressive a driver drives the vehicle, the TCM moves up the shift so that the present gear is held a little longer before the next upshift. If the driving style is still aggressive, the shift point is modified up to ten steps. If the driving returns to normal, then the shift point modification also returns to the base position. This adaptation has no memory. The adaptation to driving style is nothing more than a shift point modification meant to assist an aggressive driver. The shift points are adjusted for the moment and return to base position as soon as the inputs are controlled in a more rational manner. Driving style adaptation does not occur when there is an ABS wheel speed sensor fault. Shift Time Adaptation (Shift Overlap, Working Pressure) Shift time adaptation is the ability of the TCM to electronically alter the time it takes to go from one gear to another. Shift time is defined as the time it takes to disengage one clutch while another clutch is being engaged. Shift time adaptation is divided into four categories: 1. Accelerating upshift, which is an upshift under a load. For shift time adaptation for the 1–2 upshift to take place, the transmission must shift from first to second in six different engine load ranges versus transmission output speed ranges. 2. Decelerating upshift, which is an upshift under no load. A decelerating upshift is a rolling upshift and is accomplished by letting the vehicle roll into the next gear. 3. Accelerating downshift, which is a downshift under load, can be initiated by the throttle, with or without kickdown. The shift selector can also be used. 4. Decelerating downshift, which is accomplished by coasting down. As the speed of the vehicle decreases, the transmission downshifts. Fill Pressure Adaptation (Apply Pressure, Modulating Pressure) Fill pressure adaptation is the ability of the TCM to modify the pressure used to engage a shift member. The value of this pressure determines how firm the shift is. • If too much pressure is used, the shift is harsh. • If too little pressure is used, the transmission can slip. The pressure adjustment is needed to compensate for the tolerances of the shift pressure solenoid valve. The amount the solenoid valve opens as well as how quickly the valve can move, has an effect on the pressure. The return spring for the clutch provides a resistance that must be overcome by the pressure for the clutch to apply. These return springs have slightly different values, which can affect the application pressure and is compensated for by fill pressure adaptation. Fill Time Adaptation (Engagement Time Adaptation) • Fill time is the time it takes to fill the piston cavity and take up any clearances in a clutch or brake. Fill time adaptation is the ability of the TCM to modify the time it takes to fill the shift member by applying a preload pressure.
And then we can chat about every gear having five (5) basic shift stratagies to start with...........
Here's another tidbit The TCM stores adaptation values every ten minutes. After performing the adaptation procedures, make sure to leave the engine running for at least ten minutes. You can manually store the adaptation values using the diagnostic scan tool “Store Adaptives” procedure. Repeat the adaptation procedure if shift quality is questionable and if still questionable, verify any transmission repairs.
nathan - funny you mention this..... i just got an email tune from steve and when i loaded it, i tweaked the fans before hand and apparently f'd up the tune!!! lol he told me to only reset the tcm adaptives and raise shift points THEN LOAD IT!! after the load is done, i can then tweak the handheld setting!!! lol i called steve and told him the car is no different and he explained why and then told me the exact same "learning" procedure!!! aggressive driving in manual shifting 1-2, then 2-3 and then back down. do this three or so times and then do part throttle aggressive accels in drive. follow this up with a few rolling wot bursts and the car will be set!!!! still have yet to do it due to the weather being rainy as hell, but hopefully this weekend i can finally see the difference his tune will make for my lightly modded sled!!!
He did this in my car in 4:00 traffic on the neighborhood streets of Torrance, CA, (very near "Rick and Ronnie's" drive in). He did not have any quelms about driving it my car this way, but my sphincter was tight. It was an area neither of us had been in before. You will be really surprised at the results. Just need to see how long it lasts.
looking forward to doing this nathan!!! friggin weather has been raining everyday this week!!! the idea of turning off the esp, then driving the shit out of the car on wet roads does not sound to safe!!! lol
